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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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As a fringe group, Hizb ut-Tahrir are a bit of a worry, but before we get too carried away let's remember that it's not actually mandatory to love the country you live in. Frankly, I've never felt any more than the mildest patriotic stirrings, and I don't particularly give a damn about our national paraphernalia either (flags, anthem, banksia roses etc.). And yet, I am not, I hope you will agree, a threat to Australia or social order.
Many religious sects, Christian and others, prioritise God over country. Again, nothing wrong with that, so long as they follow the law of the land. What worries people, understandably enough, is that ambivalence towards the country in which you reside is one step away from outright enmity towards it and its people. I don't know how justified that fear is when it comes to HuT, but the answer is thankfully pretty simple: punish advocacy of violence or other law-breaking; otherwise, for better or for worse, we have freedom of religion here and it's a freedom that needs to be defended.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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[u] | David wrote: | As a fringe group, Hizb ut-Tahrir are a bit of a worry, but before we get too carried away let's remember that it's not actually mandatory to love the country you live in. Frankly, I've never felt any more than the mildest patriotic stirrings, and I don't particularly give a damn about our national paraphernalia either (flags, anthem, banksia roses etc.). And yet, I am not, I hope you will agree, a threat to Australia or social order.
Many religious sects, Christian and others, prioritise God over country. Again, nothing wrong with that, so long as they follow the law of the land. What worries people, understandably enough, is that ambivalence towards the country in which you reside is one step away from outright enmity towards it and its people. I don't know how justified that fear is when it comes to HuT, but the answer is thankfully pretty simple: punish advocacy of violence or other law-breaking; otherwise, for better or for worse, we have freedom of religion here and it's a freedom that needs to be defended. |
I think what you are expressing is probably the orthodox position among intellectuals, and I think it is a great shame. Of course it is not mandatory to love your country ; but I think it is morally necessary to defend it, if you wish to live under its protection. I think it is fairly clear that the likes of HuT would certainly not defend Australia if we were attacked by a Muslim nation, and that is the point of this conspicuous rejectionism of Australia’s symbols of nationhood. If these appalling people are Australian citizens, then they are legally entitled to hold their contemptible position ; but if they are not, then they should be deported forthwith, as they are not friends of Australia and do not deserve its hospitality and privileges.
Your post suggests that observing law is all that matters, but I disagree. A nation worth having is more than whatever laws are on its statute book. It is a thread of mutual understanding forged via landscape, language, shared history and identity born out of success and sacrifice. Newcomers may not have all of that on arrival, but those who passionately wish to embrace it should be welcomed. Those who treat the nation as a flag of convenience for foreign interests should be rejected.
There is, however, a broader point. There is nothing so powerful as the assumption that gradually comes to form an uncontested truth. I think several of these are at work eroding our society and eroding the particular ideal of human progress embodied in Australia. One of those assumptions is that patriotism is a bad thing. That is understandable, after the slaughter caused by various forms of perverted nationalism in the 20th century and the noxious legacy of failed European empires – but bad experiences are a bad teacher. It was not European patriotism of the 19th century that caused disaster, but colonialism and a failure to understand the changing nature of war. I don’t think that patriotism itself obliges us to repeat those errors. Just as love for your family does not require hostility to others, patriotism – love for Australia and its meaning in the world, and care for its interests - is a healthy thing which binds us together.
To that extent, David, I think love for, and loyalty to, your country is important to the social order. In modern Australia we have not been severely tested by civil breakdown or war ; but history has not stopped, and these things will come again. When they do, we should expect all Australians to put the interests of Australia their first priority. The trouble is, we will not find that spirit when it matters, if we do not care for it when it does not seem to matter. When even people with your natural liberalism and generosity think that loyalty to Australia is secondary ("prioritising God over country ...nothing wrong with that"), then I think we have a real problem ahead.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:40 am; edited 3 times in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | [u] | David wrote: | As a fringe group, Hizb ut-Tahrir are a bit of a worry, but before we get too carried away let's remember that it's not actually mandatory to love the country you live in. Frankly, I've never felt any more than the mildest patriotic stirrings, and I don't particularly give a damn about our national paraphernalia either (flags, anthem, banksia roses etc.). And yet, I am not, I hope you will agree, a threat to Australia or social order.
Many religious sects, Christian and others, prioritise God over country. Again, nothing wrong with that, so long as they follow the law of the land. What worries people, understandably enough, is that ambivalence towards the country in which you reside is one step away from outright enmity towards it and its people. I don't know how justified that fear is when it comes to HuT, but the answer is thankfully pretty simple: punish advocacy of violence or other law-breaking; otherwise, for better or for worse, we have freedom of religion here and it's a freedom that needs to be defended. |
I think what you are expressing is probably the orthodox position among intellectuals, and I think it is a great shame. Of course it is not mandatory to love your country ; but I think it is morally necessary to defend it, if you wish to live under its protection. I think it is fairly clear that the likes of HuT would certainly not defend Australia if we were attacked by a Muslim nation, and that is the point of this conspicuous rejectionism of Australia’s symbols of nationhood. If these appalling people are Australian citizens, then they are legally entitled to hold their contemptible position ; but if they are not, then they should be deported forthwith, as they are not friends of Australia and do not deserve its hospitality and privileges.
Your post suggests that observing law is all that matters, but I disagree. A nation worth having is more than whatever laws are on its statute book. It is a thread of mutual understanding forged via landscape, language, shared history and identity born out of success and sacrifice. Newcomers may not have all of that on arrival, but those who passionately wish to embrace it should be welcomed. Those who treat the nation as a flag of convenience for foreign interests should be rejected.
There is, however, a broader point. There is nothing so powerful as the assumption that gradually comes to form an uncontested truth. I think several of these are at work eroding our society and eroding the particular ideal of human progress embodied in Australia. One of those assumptions is that patriotism is a bad thing. That is understandable, after the slaughter caused by various forms of perverted nationalism in the 20th century and the noxious legacy of failed European empires – but bad experiences are a bad teacher. It was not European patriotism of the 19th century that caused disaster, but colonialism and a failure to understand the changing nature of war. I don’t think that patriotism itself obliges us to repeat those errors. Just as love for your family does not require hostility to others, patriotism – love for Australia and its meaning in the world, and care for its interests - is a healthy thing which binds us together.
To that extent, David, I think love for, and loyalty to, your country is important to the social order. In modern Australia we have not been severely tested by civil breakdown or war ; but history has not stopped, and these things will come again. When they do, we should expect all Australians to put the interests of Australia their first priority. The trouble is, we will not find that spirit when it matters, if we do not care for it when it does not seem to matter. When even people with your natural liberalism and generosity think that loyalty to Australia is secondary ("prioritising God over country ...nothing wrong with that"), then I think we have a real problem ahead. |
That sir, is a magnificent post.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The idea that there's some clear dividing line between patriotism (good!) and nationalism (bad!) is a bit of a fantasy, I think. They come from the same place, psychologically: a desire for meaningful identity, a desire to split the world into an 'us' and 'them', and a conservative fixation with preserving traditions and paraphernalia. That's not to say that patriotism doesn't have its positive uses - perhaps it can foster a greater sense of community and harmony that transcends petty(er) sectarianism - but it also has some quite well-earned negative associations, not least in its call to define and exclude the 'other', and all kinds of irrationalities from economic protectionism to 'dying for the fatherland'.
The way forward for our world does not lie in re-entrenchment of national symbols and a 'my country right or wrong' mentality. That way lies the age-old story of war and pogroms. I think our allegiance is better directed towards humanity and what's best for the world, not just our little island.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | The idea that there's some clear dividing line between patriotism (good!) and nationalism (bad!) is a bit of a fantasy, I think. They come from the same place, psychologically: a desire for meaningful identity, a desire to split the world into an 'us' and 'them', and a conservative fixation with preserving traditions and paraphernalia. That's not to say that patriotism doesn't have its positive uses - perhaps it can foster a greater sense of community and harmony that transcends petty(er) sectarianism - but it also has some quite well-earned negative associations, not least in its call to define and exclude the 'other', and all kinds of irrationalities from economic protectionism to 'dying for the fatherland'.
The way forward for our world does not lie in re-entrenchment of national symbols and a 'my country right or wrong' mentality. That way lies the age-old story of war and pogroms. I think our allegiance is better directed towards humanity and what's best for the world, not just our little island. |
no worries, when do you reckon the (insert who ever you want) will get on board with that too?
i think we are a pretty accepting nation when it comes to others beliefs and traditions
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Perhaps, but it could well be related to our relative lack of patriotism?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Perhaps, but it could well be related to our relative lack of patriotism? |
You mean your lack of patriotism? Most Aussies seem to see Australia Day for what it should be, celebrating everything Australian. The flag, the thongs, the batch, the mate ship. Your the one who turns your nose up at it. The majority doesn't. Those Aussie flag singlets you despise, that's patriotism.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Some would say a pretty shallow form of patriotism. But either way, I think it's generally understood that patriotism isn't a big part of Australian culture - or at least hasn't been, historically speaking. There has been a big increase in patriotic display over the last couple of decades. I like to think I'm with the 'silent majority' on this.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| David wrote: | | ^ Some would say a pretty shallow form of patriotism. But either way, I think it's generally understood that patriotism isn't a big part of Australian culture - or at least hasn't been, historically speaking. There has been a big increase in patriotic display over the last couple of decades. I like to think I'm with the 'silent majority' on this. |
Yes it is!! It may not be as overt as it is in many countries but it is indeed part of our culture - it depends on your understanding of what patriotism is - public display is but a small - very small component!
I wouldn't be seen dead in Australia Day garb ( the Irish in me forbids the Union Jack 😛) and I don't celebrate Australia Day as when I was working in the NT I came to understand that the day chosen to celebrate country is deeply offensive and upsetting to Indigenous people who would celebrate gladly if the chosen date was different!
But I love this country and value deeply the way of life and benefits it gives us - that in my book makes me patriotic and I think you will find the majority of Aussies feel that way - your take is far far far and away not the majority view.
Not a perfect country - it is inhabited by humans so that is not possible - but for all the rantings of leftist fruit loops still pretty tolerant and accepting of other cultures UNLESS they refuse to embrace the freedoms and lifestyle they have here and try and impose their ways and beliefs on the rest of us.
There is nothing better than travel for work or pleasure but there is also nothing better than coming home to Australia - if you ever leave the country and actually experience other cultures and lifestyles you may actually understand this and come to appreciate why patriotic people wish to conserve it!!!!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Just curious, has anyone actually checked what this particular shitstorm is all about?
yeah it was originally about a techer sxcusing some Muslim kids from the class when it was time to sing the National Anthem, but it wasn't just about them being Muslim, for right or wrong there was something else at play.
My personal opinion is the teacher made the wrong call but I can see why they made it.
Couple of things we have that we want to maintain are freedom of religion and the separation of religion and state.
Oh, and FFS watch the Jim Jeffries videos.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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npalm
Joined: 01 May 2005
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Apparently, some of the the children belong to a particular branch of Islam who, for a few days of the year, enter a proscribed period of mourning and are not meant to sing or dance. The teacher was aware that this period of mourning had commenced and gave the children the option not to sing the anthem.
Seems a fairly reasonable case of religious tolerance to me.
It has subsequently been blown out of all proportion and misrepresented.
And, sorry Stui, I watched one of the Jim Jeffries videos but I just don't like him. Don't dislike him .....I just don't find him particularly funny.
Robin Williams is more my style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhmwcmOPemk |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I've watched a few of Jeffries' videos. His stuff has made me laugh a few times, which is a rare achievement for a stand-up comedian, but then he just seems like a real tool 75% of the time. I think the stuff about God turning up at the party fell a bit flat, for instance. But the first part of that video was pretty funny.
BTW, thanks for bringing that up Stui and npalm (welcome to the VPT, by the way, if this is your first time here!  ). Obviously a small detail that the Murdoch press forgot to tell us. One can still reasonably argue the toss as to whether it's right or wrong, but you'd have to be pretty cynical to spin it as some 'Muslims being treacherous' story.
| Morrigu wrote: | | There is nothing better than travel for work or pleasure but there is also nothing better than coming home to Australia - if you ever leave the country and actually experience other cultures and lifestyles you may actually understand this and come to appreciate why patriotic people wish to conserve it!!!! |
Yeah... or, on the other hand, I might never come back! 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ bullshite and you know it!
The reason given for the children not signing was well publicised and not without merit - it was not hidden even remotely and was not the main focus of the ensuing discussion.
The discussion was more about the response by HuT and assertions such as yours I seem to recall that prioritising God over country is fine and that patriotic Aistrralians are in your opinion the " vocal miniority"
You should change your user name to PTID Jnr - seriously 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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