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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | ive seriously never thought of it that way. how come its okay to bully Australian, or more likely, foreign companies doing business here, into getting bullshit certification?
its blackmail.
if Cadbury didn't have that little symbol, you think they would go broke? nope. me neither. |
I think you miss the point.
Nobody is 'telling' ordinary Muslims to buy Halal products. They already know; it's an important part of their religious practices. But how are they to be sure that a given item in the supermarket has been produced in a clean, non-contaminated environment? How do they know that the gelatine in lolly snakes comes from cow bones, not pig bones? They can guess, as some less orthodox Muslims undoubtedly do, or else they can opt for items that have been cleared by an accredited authority.
That's all these certification bodies do: inspect the food production processes and give it their seal of approval. This is no monopoly: as Stui's article suggests, there are many bodies willing to do this. Companies don't care which organisation does it; they just want the tick so they can tap into another customer base. Obviously they're not going to want to pay more than they need to for this; any authority that charges exorbitant rates is going to be sidestepped in favour of one that doesn't. The law of competition is a very good rort prevention mechanism.
That's all this is: businesses making commercial decisions in order to maximise their profit. If you don't like it, feel free to start your own non-Halal food production company. Good luck, though, because I suspect you'll be catering to a fairly limited market.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| nomadjack wrote: | | think positive wrote: | ive seriously never thought of it that way. how come its okay to bully Australian, or more likely, foreign companies doing business here, into getting bullshit certification?
its blackmail.
if Cadbury didn't have that little symbol, you think they would go broke? nope. me neither. |
Where's the bullying or blackmail? It's purely a business decision a business will make to appeal to a potential market. It might be bullshit to you but for Muslims and Jews this kind of certification is a fundamental part of them being able to practice their religion. |
hmmmm wonder how much consideration Christians would get if they made such demands?
and no I will never agree to something that stands for cruelty.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| You can say that again. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | think positive wrote: | ive seriously never thought of it that way. how come its okay to bully Australian, or more likely, foreign companies doing business here, into getting bullshit certification?
its blackmail.
if Cadbury didn't have that little symbol, you think they would go broke? nope. me neither. |
To be honest i really don't care about it, all these certification programs are BS at least this one has some basis. For a devout Muslim it lets them know the food is OK to eat, for the rest of us it should mean nothing.
The Heart Foundation tick is more of a rort IMO, companies pay to get a tick so that the consumer thinks the food is healthy . |
I totally agree. and with the heart tick thing, its crap. some of the products ticked are ridiculous. probably the same for halal certification, wonder how many scoundrels eat bacon for brekky and don't wash their hands properly when they choof off to work!!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | | nomadjack wrote: | | Where's the bullying or blackmail? It's purely a business decision a business will make to appeal to a potential market. It might be bullshit to you but for Muslims and Jews this kind of certification is a fundamental part of them being able to practice their religion. |
hmmmm wonder how much consideration Christians would get if they made such demands? |
For God/Allah/Xenu's sake, have you heard of the fact that the entire country shuts up shop for a day to commemorate the J Man getting nailed by the Romans? That the country's biggest football competition takes a night off in case a few hardcore Catholics have to skip a game?
What about the fact that our houses of parliament have a Christian prayer at the beginning of each session? Or that many of our secular public schools have resident Christians on the premises for pastoral care and liturgical advice, paid for by the government?
Can you imagine the outcry if Ramadan or Yom Kippur were made a public holiday, or if defendants had to place their hand on the Bhagavad Gita at the beginning of court hearings, or if the UK emblem on our flag—featuring a St. George cross—was replaced by an Islamic half-moon? Some perspective would not go astray.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | nomadjack wrote: | | Where's the bullying or blackmail? It's purely a business decision a business will make to appeal to a potential market. It might be bullshit to you but for Muslims and Jews this kind of certification is a fundamental part of them being able to practice their religion. |
hmmmm wonder how much consideration Christians would get if they made such demands? |
For God/Allah/Xenu's sake, have you heard of the fact that the entire country shuts up shop for a day to commemorate the J Man getting nailed by the Romans? That the country's biggest football competition takes a night off in case a few hardcore Catholics have to skip a game?
What about the fact that our houses of parliament have a Christian prayer at the beginning of each session? Or that many of our secular public schools have resident Christians on the premises for pastoral care and liturgical advice, paid for by the government?
Can you imagine the outcry if Ramadan or Yom Kippur were made a public holiday, or if defendants had to place their hand on the Bhagavad Gita at the beginning of court hearings, or if the UK emblem on our flag—featuring a St. George cross—was replaced by an Islamic half-moon? Some perspective would not go astray. |
whoa! I actually LOLed I got David riled!!!
well done honey, bit of emotion!!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | or if the UK emblem on our flag—featuring a St. George cross—was replaced by an Islamic half-moon?. |
The way things are going back in the Mother Country I wouldn't be surprised.  |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | | The Quran, unlike the the Bible is inviolate, unquestionable, literal and not open to interpretation. |
Do you ever know what are are you talking about or is it that if you heard it on the Blot report it's an incontrovertible fact?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_interpretation_of_the_Quran
| Quote: | Quranic esotericism...
Scholars agree that some passages of the Quran leave certain ideas implied rather than stated and that, from the outset, the Quran cautions that some verses are literal in meaning, while others, named 'muhkamat' and 'mutashabihat' are metaphorical in meaning:[4][5]
"It is God who has sent down to you the book: In it are verses clear (muhkamat), they are the foundation of the book, others are unspecific (mutashabihat)."[6] (Quran 3:7) |
Like-wise Sharia law is based on interpretations from the Quran (albeit 300 years after it was written).
| Quote: | Adherence to Islamic law has served as one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Muslim faith historically, and through the centuries Muslims have devoted much scholarly time and effort on its elaboration.
Interpretations of sharia (fiqh) vary between Islamic sects and respective schools of jurisprudence. |
Oh well, never let the facts get in the way of good anti Muslim rant! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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I suggest you look a little deeper than Wikipedia before spouting off about someone else not knowing what they're talking about.
From Oxford Islamic Studies:
"For Muslims, the Qur'an is the eternal and indisputable word of God."
"Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the eternal, literal word of God. The original version of the book is described as preserved in heaven or in the mind of God. God's direct speech, indicated by the use of the first person plural (we), appears in much of the Qur'an."
and on and on and on.
http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t243/e275
You might be thinking of the Hadith, which are what you might call the appendices of the Quran written after the fact, but the book itself is inviolate.
You might also try reading it, something which I am currently doing.
Much easier to spew forth wikipedia bullshit and imply I'm a bigot or call me 'anti Muslim'. Your own bigotry is what is shining through.
bigot
noun:
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
Class is dismissed, on your way. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I suspect 3 is spot on here, Wokko. Many Christians make exactly these claims about the Bible:
| Quote: | From Oxford Islamic Studies:
"For Muslims, the Qur'an is the eternal and indisputable word of God."
"Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the eternal, literal word of God. The original version of the book is described as preserved in heaven or in the mind of God. God's direct speech, indicated by the use of the first person plural (we), appears in much of the Qur'an." |
Eternal and indisputable? Yep. Literal? Yep. Direct speech from the mouth of God? Yep.
So why do most Christians eat prawns, worship on Sunday and not stone their children for talking back to them? Simple: interpretation and convenience. This is why there are so many different Christian and Muslim denominations: they all believe the holy book is true, but it's amazing how far that "truth" can be bent in order to fit preconceived or socially acceptable views.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I did not know Christians eat prawns worship on Sunday and not stone their children for talking back to them does. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | I suspect 3 is spot on here, Wokko. Many Christians make exactly these claims about the Bible:
| Quote: | From Oxford Islamic Studies:
"For Muslims, the Qur'an is the eternal and indisputable word of God."
"Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the eternal, literal word of God. The original version of the book is described as preserved in heaven or in the mind of God. God's direct speech, indicated by the use of the first person plural (we), appears in much of the Qur'an." |
Eternal and indisputable? Yep. Literal? Yep. Direct speech from the mouth of God? Yep.
So why do most Christians eat prawns, worship on Sunday and not stone their children for talking back to them? Simple: interpretation and convenience. This is why there are so many different Christian and Muslim denominations: they all believe the holy book is true, but it's amazing how far that "truth" can be bent in order to fit preconceived or socially acceptable views. |
The last Pope disagrees with you.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/05/05/pope-insists-bibles-truth-is-found-in-its-totality/
“It is possible to perceive the Sacred Scriptures as the word of God” only by looking at the Bible as a whole, “a totality in which the individual elements enlighten each other and open the way to understanding,” the Pope wrote in a message to the Pontifical Biblical Commission.
“It is not possible to apply the criterion of inspiration or of absolute truth in a mechanical way, extrapolating a single phrase or expression,” the Pope wrote in the message released today at the Vatican.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/05/05/pope-insists-bibles-truth-is-found-in-its-totality/
As the Pope is infallible and has a direct line to God, that's the way it is (for Catholics anyway, the largest Christian sect).
Again I ask those of you who want to keep saying "Look at those Christians, they're just as bad" like it invalidates the argument I'm making (even if it were true it doesn't), I ask again, show me all these Christians who are taking the Bible as 100% literal, divine law to be followed and never altered. There is no comparison beyond a purely scriptural one and this isn't a theological discussion but one of practicalities. The Quran was the word of God, directly spoken to Mohammed who spoke those words to others and someone then wrote them down (Mohammed was illiterate I believe). The Bible is a collection of various works from myriad prophets and have been translated between three languages and the followers of Christ, while reverent towards the Bible are certainly not saying that it is the direct communication from God to Man. Islam is saying EXACTLY that. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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^^LDS?
_________________
Well done boys! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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They've got their own book that Joseph Smith saw in the bottom of a hat.
Knowing the truth of Joseph Smith’s testimony requires each earnest seeker of truth to study the record and then exercise sufficient faith in Christ to ask God in sincere, humble prayer whether the record is true. If the seeker asks with the real intent to act upon the answer revealed by the Holy Ghost, the truthfulness of Joseph Smith’s vision will be manifest. In this way, every person can know that Joseph Smith spoke honestly when he declared, “I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it” (Joseph Smith—History 1:25).
https://www.lds.org/topics/joseph-smith?lang=eng |
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