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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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Respect your views but disagree. ASADA were to blame for not using their full authority and powers to direct Stephen Dank and Shane Charter to cooperate with the investigation. Pretty certain that during the investigation, they were given the powers to interview anyone related to the saga. If not, bring in WADA with these specific powers. One CANNOT come to a fulfilling conclusion without interviewing and investigating ALL of the stakeholders, not just some. 
The fact is that they failed to win a fairly straight forward case where players WERE definitely injected with a substance that no one knows what it consisted of.
By the time these players have kids with issues relating to chemical affects on their bodies, it will be too late to do anything significant except to sigh loudly that their suspicions were proved to be right.... 
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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droversdog65
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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| The AFL were NEVER going to find the Bombers guilty, it remains to be seen whether WADA decide to stick it to the AFL for their craven love of money. |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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asada was not in a position to compel charters, dank or others to speak with them. mcdevitt thought they had done enough to secure comfortable satisfaction outcomes.
obviously, we need to wait and see if wada comes in and appeals this. if i were asada i'd want wada to make the appeal.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| John Wren wrote: | | mcdevitt thought they had done enough to secure comfortable satisfaction outcomes. |
And I must admit, so did I. Agree that WADA just HAS to drive it from here.
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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derkd
Joined: 29 May 2013
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| Lazza wrote: | Respect your views but disagree. ASADA were to blame for not using their full authority and powers to direct Stephen Dank and Shane Charter to cooperate with the investigation. Pretty certain that during the investigation, they were given the powers to interview anyone related to the saga. If not, bring in WADA with these specific powers. One CANNOT come to a fulfilling conclusion without interviewing and investigating ALL of the stakeholders, not just some.
The fact is that they failed to win a fairly straight forward case where players WERE definitely injected with a substance that no one knows what it consisted of.
By the time these players have kids with issues relating to chemical affects on their bodies, it will be too late to do anything significant except to sigh loudly that their suspicions were proved to be right.... |
Agree lazza, and i would add people forget that Essendon self reported in 2013, and promptly handed ASADA open house to check them out. and they got no positive tests...no e-mails....no staff willing to come forward and say ˙es drug use was as endemic as ASADA have claimed".
Now the fact that the AFL got involved. Previous Federal Government were also in deep behind the scenes. suggest questionable practice ....my concern is on a number of fronts:
- What were other players (AFL, goverment et.al) doing behind the scenes?
- If (as ASADA claims) that this was so open and shut a case...why did they fail so badly? are they completely incompetent as an organisation...we can not rule it out...do we need a new method of testing and overseeing?
- I would also say look at what Essendon has been though for a moment over the past few years, they self reported and were dragged as a club to hell and back for 2 years.....what club would now ever risk self reporting ANY drug use at their club?....and lets be honest here if one club has been involved you got to bet there has to be more clubs with a questionable past....this has created a very poor precedent due to the poor managment of ASADA
my thoughts anyway...like i have always said.....I have no love at all for Essendon.....but my fear is from taking a step back for a moment and thinknig about our great game as a whole...because we all stand to lose something not just Essendon.
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"To know nothing of events before your birth, is to forever remain a child" - Cicero (Roman Lawyer/Senator) 46 BCE. |
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Lone Ranger
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Location: Macedon Ranges
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You cant test for TB4.
Without that ASADA had to go on emails, phone records (yes there were emails and phone records), witnesses, and the like.
They have such evidence that TB4 was ordered, they have evidence of TB4 being supplied to chemists, they just dont have direct evidence that the TB4 was injected.
THATS BECAUSE ESSENDON HAVE NO RECORDS.
They made that final link that players were probably injected with TB4 based on 2 key witnesses. Those witnesses then refused to testify.
Were ASADA slow? Yes
Should they have ensured the transcripts from the witnesses were at least sworn? Yes
Should they have stopped when the witnesses refused to testify? Maybe
Did they make mistakes? Yep
But be clear, at the root of this is Essendon completely failing to keep records.
You can direct anger at Dank but it still comes back to Essendon no overseeing him.
The right thing to do was for all senior management at Essendon to fall on their swords and resign.
Thats the president, CEO, head coach. |
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derkd
Joined: 29 May 2013
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| Lone Ranger wrote: | You cant test for TB4.
Without that ASADA had to go on emails, phone records (yes there were emails and phone records), witnesses, and the like.
They have such evidence that TB4 was ordered, they have evidence of TB4 being supplied to chemists, they just dont have direct evidence that the TB4 was injected.
THATS BECAUSE ESSENDON HAVE NO RECORDS.
They made that final link that players were probably injected with TB4 based on 2 key witnesses. Those witnesses then refused to testify.
Were ASADA slow? Yes
Should they have ensured the transcripts from the witnesses were at least sworn? Yes
Should they have stopped when the witnesses refused to testify? Maybe
Did they make mistakes? Yep
But be clear, at the root of this is Essendon completely failing to keep records.
You can direct anger at Dank but it still comes back to Essendon no overseeing him.
The right thing to do was for all senior management at Essendon to fall on their swords and resign.
Thats the president, CEO, head coach. |
Correct me if i am wrong but i think all but the head coach did just that. Ian Robison CEO resigned Daivd Evans Chairman did as well . I agree that at the very least Hird as head coach ....and whatever actually took place at the club should probably have gone too...but as it seems he is loved by the playing group...so it was the devil or the deep sea....sack him and watch the player exidos.... or fight...and no matter what your view..it seems the latter was the right move...from at least a club stability point of view.
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"To know nothing of events before your birth, is to forever remain a child" - Cicero (Roman Lawyer/Senator) 46 BCE. |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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More news that comes out - The Bigger of a Joke it come
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I am Da Man |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Hird, Thomson and their club doctor should all be sitting in gaol for overseeing this experimental covert drug injection program, without any proper records of what the players were injected with. I'm glad the players got off, as they are the victims not the perpetrators in all this. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| derkd wrote: | | Agree lazza, and i would add people forget that Essendon self reported in 2013, and promptly handed ASADA open house to check them out. |
Essendon only 'self-reported' after Demetriou and the AFL tipped them off about the fact that the Australian Crime Commission (ACC) was allegedly investigating them anyway after allegations had come to the AFL's attention just beforehand that Essendon may have used performance enhancing substances throughout the 2012 season.
Therefore their decision to self-report is fundamentally flawed on this basis alone as they only did so when they were going to be under heavy scrutiny anyway. It was just that self-reporting was always going to make them look better than to have ASADA knocking on their door unexpectedly.
Here's an article from July 2013 about whether former Essendon chairman David Evans would stand down or not that sheds more light on this and the key part of the article as demonstrated below.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-chairman-david-evans-i-am-not-standing-down/story-fni5f6kv-1226684619904
| Quote: | Hird said today he was at Evans' house on the night of Monday, February 4, when Evans took a call from Demetriou. He said the contents of the call were discussed by those present - Hird, Evans, former CEO Ian Robson, club doctor Bruce Reid and football boss Danny Corcoran.
The AFL has always maintained that Essendon "self-reported" and asked to be investigated by ASADA and the AFL on February 5 based on its own information.
Demetriou has admitted speaking to Evans the night before the club self-reported for the potential use of performance-enhancing drugs, but denies he "tipped him off" about an Australian Crime Commission investigation.
"We've all given our version of what happened, or the truth, to ASADA," Hird said.
"I know I've told truth to ASADA and I know other people have as well, so the truth will come out over time.
When asked whether Demetriou had done anything wrong, Hird replied: "I'm not sure".
"I wouldn't have thought he has but I'm not the ACC, I'm not ASADA, I'm a football coach trying to coach a game tomorrow night," he said.
Anti-doping investigators have been told of a phone call made by Demetriou to Evans on Monday, February 4.
Differing accounts of the call have been detailed to the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority.
Demetriou has vehemently denied any wrongdoing.
According to one witness testimony given to ASADA, Demetriou discussed with Evans whether his club's players had used banned performance-enhancing drugs. |
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Last edited by Jezza on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Lazza wrote: | Respect your views but disagree. ASADA were to blame for not using their full authority and powers to direct Stephen Dank and Shane Charter to cooperate with the investigation. Pretty certain that during the investigation, they were given the powers to interview anyone related to the saga. If not, bring in WADA with these specific powers. One CANNOT come to a fulfilling conclusion without interviewing and investigating ALL of the stakeholders, not just some.
The fact is that they failed to win a fairly straight forward case where players WERE definitely injected with a substance that no one knows what it consisted of.
By the time these players have kids with issues relating to chemical affects on their bodies, it will be too late to do anything significant except to sigh loudly that their suspicions were proved to be right.... |
I'll have to read the ASADA Act 2006 (Cth) again and the amendments that occurred in 2013 but assuming that ASADA did have legislative powers to interview Dank and Charter there's nothing to say that they would have testified or even said anything that may have incriminated the club or themselves for that matter so therefore the idea of ASADA having powers to interview them renders them useless unless interviewees are compelled to talk (which contradicts the idea of 'right to silence').
ASADA may be at fault for not proving the case against Essendon but how they were going to do that considering:
1). No Essendon players had tested 'positive' to a banned substance in the 2012 season.
2). Essendon never retained important records of the supplement intake of the 34 relevant players on their list in 2012 so therefore no one could ascertain what they actually used even though circumstantial evidence suggests that they used some prohibited substances with the most notable being Thymosin beta-4 and potentially AOD-9604 as Jobe Watson revealed however I'm still unsure of what the legality of that substance was in 2012. I've had different answers to that question in the past two years and I still remain uncertain on it.
3). Essendon's insistence to hinder and undermine the investigation at every turn, with the case against ASADA for acting unlawfully in its investigative powers with the Federal Court case against them from Essendon being the most notable example of this.
4). Stephen Dank, Shane Charter and Nima Alavi's unwillingness to cooperate during the two-year investigation and to provide important evidence and statements about what occurred in 2012. These three individuals are the key to understanding to this whole investigation. The fact that they didn't cooperate resulted in the case collapsing in the end for ASADA.
Essendon may have been found 'not guilty' on the basis of 'insufficient evidence' but let's not kid ourselves here that they're innocent and therefore any further scrutiny towards them should stop! The media can spin it all they like but the supplements regime in 2012 was an absolute disgrace to the game and sport in general and every other footballing club or sporting organisation should look on in shock and horror and strive to never go down that path in the future after what we saw at Essendon.
Your last point about future children of the players involved having potential disorders is purely speculative at best and shouldn't be commented on unless there is a development about it in the future. I can understand what you're saying though with this last point but I find it irrelevant at this present time as no one can ascertain what substances were taken and how those substances may affect the players heading into the future. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we heard someone like this happen in the future but hopefully for the players' sake it doesn't happen.
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| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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droversdog65
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Rules need to be changed . . . NOW
and they need to be totally unambiguous
Lack of records needs to become a chargeable offense and the people responsible made to do JAIL TIME if found guilty.
Never again should a sporting entity be rewarded for covering up their culpability. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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Excellent post Jezza and I take your point. I HAD to mention the very real potential of chemical implications on them or their kids in the future because to this very day, the stuff they were injected with is totally unknown. We cannot simply diminish this possibility or indeed deny it, that would be disastrous for their planning for their futures. That would also be highly irresponsible.
Some chemicals can stay in your system for many years if not your whole life. Unfortunately whether they like it or not, this is the stark reality. I think it far preferable to deal with it than hiding it in the "too hard to deal with now" basket.
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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ANNODAM 
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Eltham, VIC.
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When, in years to come if the players start to develop some hideous diseases as a result of what was taken back in 2012 then it will become apparent & I'm guessing a massive lawsuit will take place.
Of course, I wish no ill health to any ESS player but the EFC as a Club can get fk'ed lying pieces of shit!
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WE WERE ROBBED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MEEE!
N.Y METS, N.Y GIANTS, PENRITH PANTHERS & HOBART HURRICANES FAN.
WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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