|
|
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
|
Post subject: | |
|
TimetoFly wrote: | Some Players will always improve no matter who is coach. I would say pendelbury beams would still be gems even if I was coach.. And I couldn't coach a little league team.. |
This is a cop out I've seen all too often lately. People ask who has improved under Buckley, and when players are listed the response is "they would have improved anyway".
You can't have it both ways. You can either accept that players have actually improved under Buckley, or you can write the question off as irrelevant due to players naturally improving with age and experience.
A better question would be:
Is our decline due to players not improving under Buckley, or is it due to the massive amount of experience our team has lost over the past 3 years due to retirements and trades? I would lean towards the latter as an explanation. We lost over 500 games experience in this last preseason alone with Maxwell, Ball and Beams' departures. That is going to hurt like hell, especially since the only experienced replacement of those 3 is Greenwood.
I'm starting to get frustrated with our teams lack of cohesion on ground, and nobody likes to lose, but to expect kids to come in to replace guys like those and immediately perform is unrealistic imo. I'm resigned to another season of pain, and I'm hoping like hell that our club has the sense to push games in to our recent talented recruits rather than persisting with average players who have reached their ceiling. That's the only way we'll be able to push back up the ladder as quickly as possible. |
|
|
|
|
RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
|
Post subject: | |
|
I think it was inky who hit the nail on the head. Our problem is our midfield. Losing Beams, Daisy, Ball as well as Heritier has left a huge whole in the midfield. Hopefully, Freeman, De Goey, Adams, Broomhead and possibly Sharenberg can soon step up and fill the breach. We probably won't really know how we're traveling until at least half way through the season. |
|
|
|
|
MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: Elwood
|
Post subject: | |
|
I'm optimistic that our youth will come through and deliver the goods. That may not come in time to save Buckley's job. I'm actually sorry that we traded for Varcoe and Greenwood. I would have preferred a couple of more second round draft picks.
As for players leaving the club, the only two I would have kept are Dawes and Shaw. We lost our forward line setup when Dawes left the club, including the protection/ decoy forward he was to Cloke. Apart from the run off half back Shaw gave us, you just don't trade players who love the club as much as Shaw loves Collingwood.
It was a mistake to recruit players under free agency that we did. The only obvious one we should have gone for is Goddard. If we are in rebuild phase we should gone the whole path and not had an each way bet in recruiting players past their prime, on the assumption that the younger players needed more experienced players around them. Now we have learnt our lesson, I don't mind if we finish down the ladder again this year, so we have the pick of the next draft pool.
I'm not convinced that Blair, Young, White, Toovey, Goldsack, and Armstrong are in our best 22, so I think we need to keep playing our youth and accept the learning curve that they will need before they come good. I also don't buy the argument that we are an unskilled team. We looked unskilled against the Bulldogs because they pressured us into making mistakes. Port Adelaide looked the most unskilled team in the competition before Hinkley took over.
We have laid the foundation at Collingwood for a long and productive climb back up to the top of the ladder. We didn't see that in NAB3 and we may not see much evidence for that in the 2015 season. But it will come one way or another, whether it comes at the expense of the senior coach, or the head of fitness, or changes elsewhere to make us more competitive. |
|
|
|
|
schuey07
Joined: 05 Aug 2008 Location: Mount Waverley
|
Post subject: | |
|
The_Staunton wrote: | OK, take this in the spirit of reasoned debate, for am I the opposite. I absolutely find no evidence in my heart of hearts than Nathan Buckley can effectively coach the side. And I don't entirely blame him for being so poor lately, but he has to carry the can for a lot of issues.
I don't see what Buckleys "game plan" actually is. As far as I can see, we're in an era of "basketball" - the game is played in spurts and fits, but a lot of the game is played in a lull, waiting for the opposition to turn the ball over. Our continued poor skills (and recruiting poor kicks like Adams and Crisp) just kills us. Even when the opposition turns the ball over, we don't have the structures in place to move the ball directly down the ground. One of three things happens - we turn it over ourselves, we kick it to an 8 on 1 Cloke, or we hang on to because after a and b we're terrified to make a mistake.
We've lost to Hawthorn now 7 times in a row based on this exact game. We've never changed game plan, style, come up with an idea to combat this. It's still long bombs to Cloke, Hawthorn lock it in our 50, then kill us once they win a hard ball in transition. Or we just turn it over and save time. And this is regardless of if its most of 2012 Premiership heroes or a young side. Season 4 and no wonder the Dogs last night found it easy to beat us - you set up a plan like Hawthorn, and it will work. Either as a coach surely he emulates Hawthorn and we move the ball better and stop recruiting bad kicks, or we find a way to beat that style. No evidence at all we're doing either (instead recruiting another bad kick in Crisp).
To me, coaching is about finding ways - finding a way to move the forward line around to make it easy to score for example. We make it look so complicated just to kick a goal. That's without getting onto what the plan is supposed to be at kick outs, defending kick outs, centre clearances...you get the idea.
I'm sorry, I just don't see what the "Buckley style" is supposed to be. Not a clue. To me, the style seems to be
1. High draft picks!
2. ?
3. Profit! |
Love the last part of your post. Not many get the reference. |
|
|
|
|
thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
|
Post subject: | |
|
i don't think coaches have a huge influence on the team.
Don Scott basically said that.
There are some who get that extra mile from the team.
There are some who implement a new game plan and they have the edge for a while.
Most are competent and reasonable coaches.
The question has to be asked is Bucks a reasonable coach or is he a complete dud? _________________ we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
Post subject: | |
|
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | I'm optimistic that our youth will come through and deliver the goods. That may not come in time to save Buckley's job. I'm actually sorry that we traded for Varcoe and Greenwood. I would have preferred a couple of more second round draft picks.
As for players leaving the club, the only two I would have kept are Dawes and Shaw. We lost our forward line setup when Dawes left the club, including the protection/ decoy forward he was to Cloke. Apart from the run off half back Shaw gave us, you just don't trade players who love the club as much as Shaw loves Collingwood.
It was a mistake to recruit players under free agency that we did. The only obvious one we should have gone for is Goddard. If we are in rebuild phase we should gone the whole path and not had an each way bet in recruiting players past their prime, on the assumption that the younger players needed more experienced players around them. Now we have learnt our lesson, I don't mind if we finish down the ladder again this year, so we have the pick of the next draft pool.
I'm not convinced that Blair, Young, White, Toovey, Goldsack, and Armstrong are in our best 22, so I think we need to keep playing our youth and accept the learning curve that they will need before they come good. I also don't buy the argument that we are an unskilled team. We looked unskilled against the Bulldogs because they pressured us into making mistakes. Port Adelaide looked the most unskilled team in the competition before Hinkley took over.
We have laid the foundation at Collingwood for a long and productive climb back up to the top of the ladder. We didn't see that in NAB3 and we may not see much evidence for that in the 2015 season. But it will come one way or another, whether it comes at the expense of the senior coach, or the head of fitness, or changes elsewhere to make us more competitive. | I'm not convinced Armstrong is in our next 22 - but I don't like making big calls like that. |
|
|
|
|
Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
|
Post subject: | |
|
RudeBoy wrote: | The problem is Cloke not Bucks.
Against the Hawks we won without Cloke. Since cloke's return we've lost both games. Put simply, when Cloke plays we become far too predictable and even if we get the ball to him, his conversion rate is sub par.
My solution is to play Gault, White and Witts down forward and leave Cloke to collect his $750,000 pa playing in the VFL. |
OR play Cloke at CHB, like,he is still a great mark. _________________ Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
|
|
|
|
ThePieMind
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
|
Post subject: | |
|
I seriously ask myself how is it that some many people lack very basic ability to evaluate FACTS.
Neils OP is factually correct, and I would add that in each of the last 2 seasons we had our best 22 miss more games through injury than any other club.
Those who conveniently ignore these facts impacting our performance, also conveniently label 8-3 mid season result as a fluke, and not attributable to Bucks.
Find me ONE media critic that agrees with this proposition and I'll relent.
And then we come to the absence of a game plan - its no co-incidence that in 2010 when we won the flag with a great gameplan we also had the lowest list turnnover of any club.
Lesson: a stable 22 will give you a game plan.
Without a stable 22 in last 2 years due to injuries how can anybody assess the Buckely's game plan. Without his preferred team on the ground for a sustained period, how can we make any cmment about his game plan.
We have an extremely young list that lacks experience - we had uptp 14 players with less than 50 games experience in some games last year.
Haw with a seasoned list were able to overcome injuries because they could blend youth and experience. Sadly for us we were left with youth and little experience.
Age took a lot of our 2010 experience and greed (Thomas and Dawes), self delusion (shaw and lumumba), and sadly family issues with Beams are the FACTS that also impacted the list and performance under Bucks.
And finally, "the sack Buckley", sentiment after 3 PRESEASON games, is further testament to attitudes that are more suited to the Richmond board than Nicks.
Bucks has made one mistake as far as I'm concerned - he has focussed on PA fitness levels at the expense of HAWK kicking skills, when a bit of both would have been far more productive. |
|
|
|
|
Neil Appleby
Joined: 11 Feb 1998 Location: Melbourne
|
Post subject: | |
|
I was expecting my post to cop a slagging here, so I'm pleasantly surprised that the majority of those responding thus far, agree that Bucks deserves more time.
Perhaps I should now change the title:
60% of Nicksters believe Bucks is the right man for the job. _________________ After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
Post subject: | |
|
You seem uncertain. Tell me why you should. |
|
|
|
|
swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Location: The 18
|
Post subject: | |
|
I think you need to change is to might be in the thread title.
We'll know one way or the other come the end of the season me thinks.
Hoping for the best but I'm a realist and will let the results be the judge. _________________ He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
|
|
|
|
John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
|
Post subject: | |
|
ThePieMind wrote: | Bucks has made one mistake as far as I'm concerned - he has focussed on PA fitness levels at the expense of HAWK kicking skills, when a bit of both would have been far more productive. |
there are many arguments of convenience and whenever facts are put up there is usually very little that gets put up to counter them.
with regards to the quoted bit, i think with better fitness comes better decision making and quicker hands. also, with the mooted reduction of the interchange cap to 80 from next year on, the emphasis on fitness will stand us in good stead. _________________ Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
|
|
|
|
The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007 Location: Hobart
|
Post subject: | |
|
Interesting little footnote in Caro's (i know, I know) Ben Cousins piece, take it with a huge grain of salt because of who writes it, but it's interesting in terms of the "rebuild" we've undertaken...
Quote: | At Collingwood, club chief Gary Pert became so alarmed by footballers' "volcanic" off-season behaviour he placed the topic on the AFL table at a meeting of club chiefs at the end of 2012.
Indeed, Collingwood's premiership celebrations lasted well beyond 2010, when they last won the flag.
Later, in 2013, one Magpies footballer turned up to a training session in an alarmingly unfit state only to be bundled up and sent home by a senior staffer. The player is now at another club. |
_________________ We just got nutted at the clearances... |
|
|
|
|
MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Location: Elwood
|
Post subject: | |
|
The_Staunton wrote: | Interesting little footnote in Caro's (i know, I know) Ben Cousins piece, take it with a huge grain of salt because of who writes it, but it's interesting in terms of the "rebuild" we've undertaken...
Quote: | At Collingwood, club chief Gary Pert became so alarmed by footballers' "volcanic" off-season behaviour he placed the topic on the AFL table at a meeting of club chiefs at the end of 2012.
Indeed, Collingwood's premiership celebrations lasted well beyond 2010, when they last won the flag.
Later, in 2013, one Magpies footballer turned up to a training session in an alarmingly unfit state only to be bundled up and sent home by a senior staffer. The player is now at another club. |
|
But we don't know what the actual circumstances were here. So a Collingwood player was drinking when he shouldn't have been drinking. And we don't know if that was the reason the player was moved on at the end of the year, if the quote is true. But let's blow the incident up and compare it to Ben Cousins, the ice addict. |
|
|
|
|
The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007 Location: Hobart
|
Post subject: | |
|
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | The_Staunton wrote: | Interesting little footnote in Caro's (i know, I know) Ben Cousins piece, take it with a huge grain of salt because of who writes it, but it's interesting in terms of the "rebuild" we've undertaken...
Quote: | At Collingwood, club chief Gary Pert became so alarmed by footballers' "volcanic" off-season behaviour he placed the topic on the AFL table at a meeting of club chiefs at the end of 2012.
Indeed, Collingwood's premiership celebrations lasted well beyond 2010, when they last won the flag.
Later, in 2013, one Magpies footballer turned up to a training session in an alarmingly unfit state only to be bundled up and sent home by a senior staffer. The player is now at another club. |
|
But we don't know what the actual circumstances were here. So a Collingwood player was drinking when he shouldn't have been drinking. And we don't know if that was the reason the player was moved on at the end of the year, if the quote is true. But let's blow the incident up and compare it to Ben Cousins, the ice addict. |
Actually totally agree, just really included for debate purposes _________________ We just got nutted at the clearances... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
|