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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | That's just silly - the team isn't going to make the finals, barring miracles. By mid-season, I want it full of the talented kids, not a whole lot of older guys who aren't capable of taking the team all the way, just so Buckley can satisfy some arbitrary requirement to be coach of the 11th worst team in the league. I want to see the team aiming to develop the next premiership squad, with or without the present coach. I don't want to see mediocrity. I had enough of that through the Hafey years and the Malthouse years. |
We have more than enough talent to make the 8.
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TimetoFly
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Neil you make some very good points, but unfortunately all you are doing is making excuses for him.
To put it simply he cant coach.
I ask you this, who has improved under Bucks as coach?
When was the last time cloke led to the ball and a kick was kicked to him lace out?
Why do we struggle to keep the ball inside 50?
Why do we struggle to bring the ball out of defence ?
Why do teams find it so easy to go the length of the ground from a behind?
Also getting rid of shaw, dawes thomas shows that Bucks is unable to relate and get the best out of different characters who are a little wild...
His answer to a problem player is to move them on. Instead of getting the best out of them..
Thomas & Beams moved on because they werent happy...plain & simple.
He tried Dawes in that Leigh Brown role & killed his confidence. Dawes was no ruckman. So what does he do, he moves him on & gets Lynch..
Bucks has made terrible mistakes to the list & the players simply dont play for him. Thats clear to see.
There is no desire, structure or system to our play..
I Love bucks to death, but he is not a coach. I am not upset Eddie did the succession plan because not taking a risk is taking the biggest risk of all..
At the end of the year do the right thing by bucks & let him go with dignity & go & get the best coach possible..
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Collingwood a way of life! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I think he does whatever he wants. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| The_Staunton wrote: | And it's why I'm going to make the same mistake if Scott Burns got the job
You've got no idea how people will go until the bum is in the seat
Right now I see a really poor side with a horrendous game plan. I don't see why because we loved Bucks as a player, he gets more time. He's paid large amounts of money to coach the side. And he's failing right now.
Also - the Bomber Thompson example is misguided. They were 10-12 and 6 million quid in debt. They were at the absolute end of that mid 90s period. We were pretty damned good in 2011 and, well... |
Bomber Thompson example was actually good. Had 2000-2006 without success and there was enormous pressure to change coach before he turned them around in 2007. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| TimetoFly wrote: | Neil you make some very good points, but unfortunately all you are doing is making excuses for him.
To put it simply he cant coach.
I ask you this, who has improved under Bucks as coach?
When was the last time cloke led to the ball and a kick was kicked to him lace out?
Why do we struggle to keep the ball inside 50?
Why do we struggle to bring the ball out of defence ?
Why do teams find it so easy to go the length of the ground from a behind?
Also getting rid of shaw, dawes thomas shows that Bucks is unable to relate and get the best out of different characters who are a little wild...
His answer to a problem player is to move them on. Instead of getting the best out of them..
Thomas & Beams moved on because they werent happy...plain & simple.
He tried Dawes in that Leigh Brown role & killed his confidence. Dawes was no ruckman. So what does he do, he moves him on & gets Lynch..
Bucks has made terrible mistakes to the list & the players simply dont play for him. Thats clear to see.
There is no desire, structure or system to our play..
I Love bucks to death, but he is not a coach. I am not upset Eddie did the succession plan because not taking a risk is taking the biggest risk of all..
At the end of the year do the right thing by bucks & let him go with dignity & go & get the best coach possible.. |
If he can't get the team heading in the right direction after 4 years then he will be sacked, well he damn well better be, personally I would've sacked at the end of last season.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
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didick
didick
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Location: Brisbane
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Buckley and Clarkson are both contracted to end of 2016. Pull out all stops, Eddie. Make it happen. Whatever it costs.
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"The night is a very dark time for me" Chaz Michael Michaels |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | And it's why I'm going to make the same mistake if Scott Burns got the job
You've got no idea how people will go until the bum is in the seat
Right now I see a really poor side with a horrendous game plan. I don't see why because we loved Bucks as a player, he gets more time. He's paid large amounts of money to coach the side. And he's failing right now.
Also - the Bomber Thompson example is misguided. They were 10-12 and 6 million quid in debt. They were at the absolute end of that mid 90s period. We were pretty damned good in 2011 and, well... |
Bomber Thompson example was actually good. Had 2000-2006 without success and there was enormous pressure to change coach before he turned them around in 2007. |
So melbourne stuffed up by not giving Neeld 6 years? Should every team give coaches 6 years because of Thompson?
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| jackcass wrote: |
What makes you assume he doesn't? |
Because he entertained the idea of coaching North before we concocted a succession plan.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Neil Appleby 
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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| TimetoFly wrote: | Neil you make some very good points, but unfortunately all you are doing is making excuses for him.
To put it simply he cant coach.
I ask you this, who has improved under Bucks as coach?
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Hi Dan
Well I won't try to answer all of your questions but I'll deal with your opening points and the first question.
I suppose some would see losing key play makers as excuses, but few coaches in recent times have had to deal with 3 years of disastrous injuries as Bucks has. This is beyond dispute I think.
Your second point is that he can't coach and you ask questions by way of evidence. Who has improved under Bucks? I'll start with players who were in the team when he took over.
-Scott Pendlebury has. He was good anyway, but he is now in the top 4 or 5 in the game. Bucks made him Captain.
-Dayne Beams certainly did. Beams never did much in finals I must admit, but he realised his potential under Bucks no doubt.
-Goldsack has. Many are critical of Goldy, but when Goldy played well we won last year.
-Macaffer is a much better footballer under Bucks. He's taught him a whole new style as a run-with tagger who hurts on the rebound.
-Steele Sidebottom is a better player now too. He is more accountable as a footballer and in 2014 I think he was at his most consistent.
-Ben Reid is a more rounded player under Bucks. He can swing and be very dangerous up forward. If he can play consistent footy that is.
New players Bucks has improved:
-Jamie Elliott - had a great year last year and will shine this year.
-Jack Frost - became one of our most reliable defenders last year. Stood up when all around him fell.
-Tom Langdon - was given the chance and took it.
-Brodie Grundy - developing nicely. Certainly will be better this year.
-Jarryd Witts - another big bloke ready to build
I reckon I could find a few more but the brains a bit weary tonight. Perhaps other Nicksters can answer your tactical questions.
_________________
After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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The_Staunton 
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | And it's why I'm going to make the same mistake if Scott Burns got the job
You've got no idea how people will go until the bum is in the seat
Right now I see a really poor side with a horrendous game plan. I don't see why because we loved Bucks as a player, he gets more time. He's paid large amounts of money to coach the side. And he's failing right now.
Also - the Bomber Thompson example is misguided. They were 10-12 and 6 million quid in debt. They were at the absolute end of that mid 90s period. We were pretty damned good in 2011 and, well... |
Bomber Thompson example was actually good. Had 2000-2006 without success and there was enormous pressure to change coach before he turned them around in 2007. |
Completely disagree
Geelong were 6 million quid in debt and if Frank Costa hadn't, ahem, "convinced" the banks not to restructure the debt, they'd have had to become a Melbourne based club at Etihad.
They made a prelim in 04 and the finals in 05, and 06 was horrendous, but it was a climb from a very very low base.
We had a list good enough to contend, and have gone backwards every year. Buckley took over a strong club, and to goo where we are now...
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We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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Neil Appleby
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | And it's why I'm going to make the same mistake if Scott Burns got the job
You've got no idea how people will go until the bum is in the seat
Right now I see a really poor side with a horrendous game plan. I don't see why because we loved Bucks as a player, he gets more time. He's paid large amounts of money to coach the side. And he's failing right now.
Also - the Bomber Thompson example is misguided. They were 10-12 and 6 million quid in debt. They were at the absolute end of that mid 90s period. We were pretty damned good in 2011 and, well... |
Bomber Thompson example was actually good. Had 2000-2006 without success and there was enormous pressure to change coach before he turned them around in 2007. |
Completely disagree
Geelong were 6 million quid in debt and if Frank Costa hadn't, ahem, "convinced" the banks not to restructure the debt, they'd have had to become a Melbourne based club at Etihad.
They made a prelim in 04 and the finals in 05, and 06 was horrendous, but it was a climb from a very very low base.
We had a list good enough to contend, and have gone backwards every year. Buckley took over a strong club, and to goo where we are now... |
You just proved him correct I think! Geelong played finals for a couple of years then fwent backwards before reloading and winning three flags. Bucks is following the same pattern.
_________________
After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | Damien wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | | Damien wrote: | I like your post Neil. I'm certainly of the opinion that one of our greatest derserves more time. To suggest he can't coach is premature for the reasons you point out.
Hawthorn last year were not only ravaged by injury, they also lost there coach for an extended period. To win back to back was an achievement that is still under appreciated by most.
We were also hit by injuries but our list capitulated compared to theirs. That's not a reflection on Bucks. It's a reflection of a young list who'd lost a lot of experience.
I keep reading about the yearning for the players that have moved on. The reality is that none of them have hurt us. Ie Wellingham, Dawes, Thomas, Shaw. And the others were ready to hang them up anyway ie Maxwell, Didak Jolly.
Bomber Thompson was probably on the verge of being axed before he started a dynasty at Geelong.
If we were to sack Buckley and he lobbed at another club and had success the usual suspects would be screaming in hindsight.
I can't believe that people are still re-raising the Malthouse discussion after a pre season loss.
The Beams departure will probably hurt us and missing out on Mitch Clark might too. But we continue to draft young talent and we have a great Captain to steer us into the next era.
Someone mentioned Port Adelaide in another thread. Basket case to Premiership contender in 12 months. Most suggest it was the coach. Reality is they could only go one way. Up.
As you pointed out; to step in after back to back GF's was always a tall order for Bucks. Scott had a freak result at Geelong in a similar scenario but yes that was freak.
If Bucks can't coach, how did he achieve 8-3 at the halfway mark last year.
I'd rather see him play an attacking game plan even if the players can't quite execute it ATM.
Anyway time to stop rambling. I still have faith in Nathan Buckley as coach and be buggered if I'm gunna panic after a meaningless NAB cup game. I know that the club won't either. |
And that bold bit is the problem. Bucks the player is a different person to Bucks the coach. He deserves no more latitude than any other person appointed as coach. 3 years of decline plus a poor pre-season in year 4 is enough. |
I knew some cynic would pick that up. It's not my point. But I guess it's my heart talking a bit. I reckon golden boy at Essendon is in the same boat. all the distraction over there aside, he hasn't proved himself yet. If some real progress isn't shown by seasons end I'd concede Bucks should walk. Voss is the other example but I reckon Brisbane unfairly moved too early on him. |
Once again, that romantic notion that Bucks would walk. What makes you think he has the best interest of the club at heart. He is employed as a coach to coach the team and he will do say so long as he is getting paid. He won't graciously admit defeat and walk away head held high.
We have to completely disassociate the player / captain from the coach. He is paid to coach and if he is failing (which he is), then the club has to sack him.
Brisbane had the balls to pull the plug on Voss who was better credentialed as a player than Bucks. We can't let nostalgia and romance get in the way of good business decisions. |
By 'Walk' I meant get the arse. FF'S pal stop trying to make out that as a Buckley supporter I'm hung up on some romantic notion. I said that if Bucks don't deliver this year he's gone. And as far as Voss' credentials as a player go it's not relevant Einstein.
_________________
'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Neil Appleby wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | And it's why I'm going to make the same mistake if Scott Burns got the job
You've got no idea how people will go until the bum is in the seat
Right now I see a really poor side with a horrendous game plan. I don't see why because we loved Bucks as a player, he gets more time. He's paid large amounts of money to coach the side. And he's failing right now.
Also - the Bomber Thompson example is misguided. They were 10-12 and 6 million quid in debt. They were at the absolute end of that mid 90s period. We were pretty damned good in 2011 and, well... |
Bomber Thompson example was actually good. Had 2000-2006 without success and there was enormous pressure to change coach before he turned them around in 2007. |
Completely disagree
Geelong were 6 million quid in debt and if Frank Costa hadn't, ahem, "convinced" the banks not to restructure the debt, they'd have had to become a Melbourne based club at Etihad.
They made a prelim in 04 and the finals in 05, and 06 was horrendous, but it was a climb from a very very low base.
We had a list good enough to contend, and have gone backwards every year. Buckley took over a strong club, and to goo where we are now... |
You just proved him correct I think! Geelong played finals for a couple of years then fwent backwards before reloading and winning three flags. Bucks is following the same pattern. |
10-12 and broke isn't the same as 21-3 and a Grand Final...
My head hurts, I'm going to yell at Taylor Adams some more...
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We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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The problem is Cloke not Bucks.
Against the Hawks we won without Cloke. Since cloke's return we've lost both games. Put simply, when Cloke plays we become far too predictable and even if we get the ball to him, his conversion rate is sub par.
My solution is to play Gault, White and Witts down forward and leave Cloke to collect his $750,000 pa playing in the VFL.  |
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BEAMER09
Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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I don't have an issue with Bucks. I just have an issue with the game plan - what is it?
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