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sem 
Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Location: melbourne
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| Post subject: CLOKE AND BROWN |  |
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After many replies from others to my topic there is a concern for BROWN .
It takes ability to try and play at the highest level and it takes courage to cross the white line and enter the arena of play .
Brown has done that .
HE has the chance to prove me and a few on here wrong this year and I wish him well .
It will be very difficult for him but when you are down the only way is up .
All t he best for this year BROWNY .
CLOKE once again there seems to be general agreement re Cloke and his faults as well .
it has been suggested here he play at CHF and run run run so hindering the opposition in trying to double team him .
THE TACTICS in the forward line MUST MUST MUST change and NOT rely ONLY on him when the ball enters the forward line , so he must not be as demanding of wanting the ball / he must play a team game .
There MUST be many other player options in the forward area of play who can receive it and are ALLOWED to kick goals ///// and i believe as per previous comments by me on NICKS there are those players who given the chance are capable .
The days of kicking impossible goals from impossible angles must be stopped by him especially so more quick passing must happen .
There are many faults in Clokes way of playing the game as per previous comments here by others and me .
i think they are all valid .
We are not the Coaching staff but we can see with our eyes and the majority share our opinions re CLOKES faults .
it really is up to the coaches to teach CLOKE to play a different game so the first thing is to decrease his kicking responsibilities as everyone knows he is not reliable and try him as a running CFC trying to get the ball to a player from that position into a better position and at a better angle for that player to kick a goal .
Failing a rebuild of his game will lead to failure as a player who at this date is the best pack mark but substandard at all else
i hope he can prove me wrong
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THERE IS NO SHADING IT IS AS PLAIN AS BLACK AND WHITE THAT THERE IS ONLY BLACK AND WHITE |
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Brenny
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre
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Brown I don't really have anopini on on as I believe he needs game time.
Cloke on the other hand, I find him one of the most frustrating players we have in the side.
One goal he kicks it from 55 on the boundary line, with a 100kph cross wind and with sand in his eye.
Next he gives us a Travis Cloke Special (On The Full) from 20 out, tail wind and nobody on the mark.
My honest opinion as a whole, Collingwood have allowed Travis to suffer, as we saw in 2014.
Dawes is gone (justified in my opinion), Witts and Grundy are underdeveloped, Karnesis hasn't played with us yet, Gault has played 1 or 2 H&A games.
Then add to that our midgets and White, who didn't show too much other than early in the season, that's a whole lot of Cloke to 2 and 3 man.
I think I'd like to see BIG TRAV played in the square where he can be close to goal and hopefully kick from rather close. His marking is his strength and while I admit I prefer him from 55 out, if he can get a good run with the umps for once he can do some damage in close.
Gault looks like he can take a decent mark and maybe he can be used higher up the ground.
Though until he develops, maybe cloke should be CHF. I don't know.
I just don't think we can write Cloke off as yet, considering we don't have anybody else who can really help him out. We need, I think, another big man who can take a defender from Cloke so he can get a decent run.
As frustrating as it is, seeing he is a spectacular mark, you can't expect him to beat 2 or 3 men every time. He needs help and in the past few years, he hasn't got any.
Maybe 2015 we will have a developing kid come through to help, that is taller than 183cm.
Cloke is 28 on March 5 and I'd expect Collingwood to give him another contract soon. Injuries aside, if he has a good season there is no reason he can't push on until 32 or 33. Unlike 10yrs ago, 30 and being over the hill seems a thing of the past in many cases.
Remembering he is soon 28, there is no reason his best is not in front of him! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Regarding Cloke, I reckon he needs 2 other power forwards to work off, as he did with Dawes and Leigh Brown in 2010. Last year, once Reid was injured, we mainly played with just Cloke and White as our big marking forwards. Assuming we only play one of Witts or Grundy, that could open a spot for Gault to play alongside Cloke and White up forward. If both Witts and Grundy play, assuming one of them rests in the forward line, this would leaves spots only for Cloke and one other power forward, either White or Gault. One thing's for sure, there's going to be fierce competition for spots in our team, something missing for quite some time. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| Brenny wrote: |
Cloke is 28 on March 5 and I'd expect Collingwood to give him another contract soon. Injuries aside, if he has a good season there is no reason he can't push on until 32 or 33. Unlike 10yrs ago, 30 and being over the hill seems a thing of the past in many cases.
Remembering he is soon 28, there is no reason his best is not in front of him! |
Pretty certain Cloke will only be entering his second (or is it third) year of a five year deal this season so no new contract will need to be on the table.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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The only real fault to clokes game is his very erratic kicking for goal. Ive been saying for ages, to get ol peter McKenna down to training, to put him thru drill after drill, from all angles. If not Macca, then someone like Matty Lloyd, anyone who was an accurate goalie, hes doing something wrong in his lining up for goal preparation, iron that out, and he could kick a bag, he marks the ball often enough, just got to work on his kicking. Its not rocket science.
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Post subject: Re: CLOKE AND BROWN | |
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| sem wrote: | After many replies from others to my topic there is a concern for BROWN .
It takes ability to try and play at the highest level and it takes courage to cross the white line and enter the arena of play .
Brown has done that .
HE has the chance to prove me and a few on here wrong this year and I wish him well .
It will be very difficult for him but when you are down the only way is up .
All t he best for this year BROWNY .
CLOKE once again there seems to be general agreement re Cloke and his faults as well .
it has been suggested here he play at CHF and run run run so hindering the opposition in trying to double team him .
THE TACTICS in the forward line MUST MUST MUST change and NOT rely ONLY on him when the ball enters the forward line , so he must not be as demanding of wanting the ball / he must play a team game .
There MUST be many other player options in the forward area of play who can receive it and are ALLOWED to kick goals ///// and i believe as per previous comments by me on NICKS there are those players who given the chance are capable .
The days of kicking impossible goals from impossible angles must be stopped by him especially so more quick passing must happen .
There are many faults in Clokes way of playing the game as per previous comments here by others and me .
i think they are all valid .
We are not the Coaching staff but we can see with our eyes and the majority share our opinions re CLOKES faults .
it really is up to the coaches to teach CLOKE to play a different game so the first thing is to decrease his kicking responsibilities as everyone knows he is not reliable and try him as a running CFC trying to get the ball to a player from that position into a better position and at a better angle for that player to kick a goal .
Failing a rebuild of his game will lead to failure as a player who at this date is the best pack mark but substandard at all else
i hope he can prove me wrong |
i completely disagree with your assessment of the two players. for the record, it isnt unanimous. Nathan Brown simply needs match conditioning and a good run with injuries and you will have a lock down fullback that you can bank on to keep a dangerous forward goal-less. every great team has at least one player that Nathan Brown can negate one-on-one. The beauty of a one-on-one shut down back is that others on the team get to focus on stopping the other forwards and dont have the added pressure of having to "drop-back" to help. there will always be a spot for such a player. i do not agree with the view that all 22 players need to have attack as their primary value. My sense is that most coaches at AFL level agree with my view. Admittedley, he looked very rusty last week and needs to build confidence in his shoulder (particularly in the first quarter). This will come if he can stay healthy. So the only part of your assessment is that, yes, Nathan really needs a good run with injuries.
Regarding Travis Cloke, in my opinion, there are only 2 issues, neither of which involves "re-teaching him how to play footy. first, does the condition of his body at his age allow him to use his great mobility and huge tank that he had when younger or is he into the immobile part of every great CHB's career. Last year, he was clearly hindered in his movement. Was it injury or deterioration. The answer to that determines what we do with him. The other issue has nothing to do with him. It is, can we get enough options into the forward line to allow him to cease being the only avenue to goal and can his teammates be a significant enough threat that we dont continue to see 3 people drop off their opponents to "help" Clokes opponent. And it isnt even a marking target that we need. We need guys who keep other defenders honest and keep them away from a contest. Signs were promising in NAB. Karnezis, Elliot and Faz all looked capable. I wonder if White too is primed for a good ytear. I am too scared to bank on Reid. he has to stroing about 3 uninjured games together before i will even include him in my considerations. Cloke is one of the best big men in the game. He might be in decline (that will hurt him), he might not have support (that will also hurt him). If both of those are in his favor, look for regular transmission to be resumed. Oh, and give up expecting him to kick at 90% efficiency. By now, he is what he is. a dependable kicker who is prone to error all too often.
I'd trade neither becasue these players do not grow on trees.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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cityslick1
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne
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I'd certainly have Brown in line for a trade unless he can cement his spot in the back 6 for most if not all of the season. Whilst he has currency, I'd trade him and maybe Blair plus a pick for Jeremy Cameron or Dangerfield.
Cloke more valuable and I hope is in for a big season. If not, he might also on the table, again to get value whilst he still has some currency.
We are short on class forwards though, and have a war-chest building of talented key backmen. I base this on Reid and Moore primarily being considered as backmen atm... or at least should be. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| cityslick1 wrote: | I'd certainly have Brown in line for a trade unless he can cement his spot in the back 6 for most if not all of the season. Whilst he has currency, I'd trade him and maybe Blair plus a pick for Jeremy Cameron or Dangerfield.
Cloke more valuable and I hope is in for a big season. If not, he might also on the table, again to get value whilst he still has some currency.
We are short on class forwards though, and have a war-chest building of talented key backmen. I base this on Reid and Moore primarily being considered as backmen atm... or at least should be. |
Why not throw in Clint Young, Ramsey, Oxley and Mason Cox? My own sense, and judging by the general feeling conveyed on here about Brown, is that he doesnt have currency relative to his value as a player. Not sure what we'd get for him. If he isnt a considerable upgrade over Keefe and Frost, why would people consider him valuable? If he is a considerable upgrade over Frost and Keefe then he is vital to us.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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cityslick1
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne
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because he was a high draft pick who should be entering the prime of his career, and has been set back by injuries. & we have as good, if not (imo) better backups. But.. for other clubs in desperate need of key backmen, they may feel that he still has a lot of potential, and just needs to be given a fresh start. His job alone on Riewoldt in 2010 final series would be enough to get a lot of clubs interested.
But... watching him every week, if he doesn't show signs this year, I'm not convinced he will ever be elite, & we may be better focusing our development efforts on Frost, Moore, Keeffe and Marsh. |
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cityslick1
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne
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| he is also 6' 5", has good sprint times and generally looks like he should be a good footballer... making him attractive to clubs, though in reality he has short arms, so plays smaller than his height, doesn't use his size to advantage, doesn't play overly quick, maybe struggles reading the play, and doesn't have a penetrating kick. Hence the over-rating by some more aesthetically focused people. With a moneyball cap on, he'd prob be one of the first players that you'd look to off-load, based on the above, but I'm interested to give him one last season to address some of the above & prove that he actual can be an elite back.. with only mild hopes. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| cityslick1 wrote: | because he was a high draft pick who should be entering the prime of his career, and has been set back by injuries. & we have as good, if not (imo) better backups. But.. for other clubs in desperate need of key backmen, they may feel that he still has a lot of potential, and just needs to be given a fresh start. His job alone on Riewoldt in 2010 final series would be enough to get a lot of clubs interested.
But... watching him every week, if he doesn't show signs this year, I'm not convinced he will ever be elite, & we may be better focusing our development efforts on Frost, Moore, Keeffe and Marsh. |
i dont think you should be hoping for him to become elite. what you want to hope is that you never notice him (and even more importantly), you never notice his opponent. remember the days when Presti would touch the ball 5 times and his opponent wouldn't touch it at all. that's what i want from Brown. I am not convinced that Frost can do that on a consistent and reliable basis (although he showed a lot of promise last year) AND i am 100% convinced that Keefe cant. Agree that Moore should be developed but i am kind of hoping he'll end up a forward once he adjusts to the speed of the game.
I guess i dont like the entire premise of this thread so i'm defensive. We have these guys on our list for 2015 and hasve a season of footy to look forward to. discussing a players trade value is really something to focus on once the season is lost. I'd rather focus on his value to the team. Brown is one of the keys to our improvement this year (although i agree that its only a 50% chance that we get this improvement).
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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Johnno75
Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Location: Wantirna
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I agree that Cloke is played out of position. Get him to CHF and let him run up the ground and burn his opponents with gut running and be the link to the forward line and hopefully someone like White can be sent deep to hold FF.
His marking was down last year but that might have been due to our game plan of kicking on top of Cloke's head when he was being double teamed but Cloke is the best contested mark in the league.
I still remember that pack mark he took late in the 2011 PF and then the crunch goal when it looked like we were all but gone. That's what he can do so I wouldn't be to quick to trade him.
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Human behavioural studies suggest people who use a lot of swear words tend to be more honest & trustworthy. |
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3rd degree 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: John Wren's tote
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| Johnno75 wrote: | I agree that Cloke is played out of position. Get him to CHF and let him run up the ground and burn his opponents with gut running and be the link to the forward line and hopefully someone like White can be sent deep to hold FF.
His marking was down last year but that might have been due to our game plan of kicking on top of Cloke's head when he was being double teamed but Cloke is the best contested mark in the league.
I still remember that pack mark he took late in the 2011 PF and then the crunch goal when it looked like we were all but gone. That's what he can do so I wouldn't be to quick to trade him. |
This, Brown is really important to us down back, but needs to get his confidence back after all his injuries . Niether Frost or Keefe have that core strength yet that Brown has to take on the bigger forwards.
_________________
" Ohhh Banksy and out comes the Note Book".
www.facebook/the hybernators |
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Scribe
Joined: 30 May 2010
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| Quote: | Droversdog65 wrote:
Remember back a few years when Cloke was out injured for the better part of one year and remember our spread of goal kickers- it didn't affect our scoring and in fact aided us against the tougher teams because you couldn't stop the goals by jumping all over Cloke. |
Since his Collingwood debut, Travis Cloke has played 215 games from a possible 240, including finals. Of the 25 he has missed, 14 came from his first two seasons (before he was 19) and he hasn't missed more than three games in a single season since.
Going by this ratio, he's actually one of the most durable and reliable players in the history of the football club - at a time when durability and reliability have become foreign concepts to our playing list.
In Cloke Collingwood has had a weapon for more than a decade - one that we have only utilised properly around 50% of the time.
I for one would not be trading away the best CHF in the history of this club because we've failed to surround him with the right players.
The moment you get rid of Cloke, you're looking for a player just like him again. 17 other clubs welcome him with open arms and then laugh all the way to September.
I respect the OP has seen a lot of the game and I don't like deriding anyone's opinion, but this is certainly one of the most bizarre threads in my time on Nicks..
I feel like I've said that so much over the last 2-3 years that it's lost all meaning. Jesus. |
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3rd degree
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: John Wren's tote
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respect the OP has seen a lot of the game and I don't like deriding anyone's opinion, but this is certainly one of the most bizarre threads in my time on Nicks..
LOVE IT
_________________
" Ohhh Banksy and out comes the Note Book".
www.facebook/the hybernators |
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