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Moderation of Gina Rinehart thread in VPT

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:32 pm
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WPT, I'm sorry you got that impression. It was a response to 1061's post, which was subsequently deleted after she re-edited it.

Stui, I've just posted a long response explaining my views on two specific issues and asking for any further critical feedback on my moderating style in general, and you respond to that by suggesting that I be less defensive and more self-reflective?

I'm not going to get into these games. I don't care what you think about my personality or maturity. I'm under no obligation to defend myself to you. Discuss the issues or move on.

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1061 



Joined: 06 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:35 pm
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David wrote:
WPT, I'm sorry you got that impression. It was a response to 1061's post, which was subsequently deleted after she re-edited it.

Stui, I've just posted a long response explaining my views on two specific issues and asking for any further critical feedback on my moderating style in general, and you respond to that by suggesting that I be less defensive and more self-reflective?

I'm not going to get into these games. I don't care what you think about my personality or maturity. I'm under no obligation to defend myself to you. Discuss the issues or move on.


Hey don't go blaming me, you did all this all by yourself.

But she does have some great earth moving equipment.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:33 pm
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David wrote:
WPT, I'm sorry you got that impression. It was a response to 1061's post, which was subsequently deleted after she re-edited it.

Stui, I've just posted a long response explaining my views on two specific issues and asking for any further critical feedback on my moderating style in general, and you respond to that by suggesting that I be less defensive and more self-reflective?

I'm not going to get into these games. I don't care what you think about my personality or maturity. I'm under no obligation to defend myself to you. Discuss the issues or move on.


being able to properly self reflect and self critique is a learned skill. I didn't get it properly until in my early 40's, some get it earlier, some never get it.

You want specific feedback? OK, my main criticism of your moderation style is as follows.

1. Thread splitting. You are way too fast to split a thread off for my tastes. Yes, it can be annoying when, as happens sometimes, every thread gets hijacked by the current debate of the moment. However, these things can also often be self correcting with a couple of on-topic posts dragging the thread back. IMO the intervention of a Mod to split a thread and take off topic posts elsewhere should happen only rarely and should be the exception.

2. This particular instance of moderating the Gina thread is, for mine, an example of your over zealous approach and how you moderate very much in accordance with what you believe. I don't have a major problem with drawing the line on the fat jibes with Gina, they do get old very fast, however I don't consider making reference to someones weight to be on an equal footing to similar remarks about their sex, race or sexual orientation. Nor, I suspect, do the majority of people. Weight is one of your personal issues that you feel strongly about and so my moderating in that way, you make it about you and about your personality. The Mod is there to moderate, not to make everyone else conform to their own belief system.

So, in summary, I find your moderation style to be much too highly interventionist and too much based on your own personal value set. You can point to the rules to justify your behaviour and on a technicality would be correct. That doesn't make it good moderation, in my opinion at least, and it would seem others agree.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:42 pm
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Re:

1) Okay, I respect your view and I'll take it on board. I would be interested to hear what others think, though.

2) Is it an example of a tendency, or is it a one-off? Of course my beliefs inform how I interpret the rules, but I'm not making rules up on the spot or interpreting them in a novel fashion. As I posted on page 1, the rule reads as follows:

Quote:
Posts that are abusive, hateful or intolerant of the differences of others will be removed or edited and the posters may be warned.


I don't see anything there that suggests race and sexuality apply but weight doesn't. When a poster mocks Gina on the basis of her weight/appearance alone, that to me constitutes intolerance of the differences of others. My own views actually have nothing to do with it.

Anyway, you'll notice that I just cleaned up your accidental triple posting. Despite what you may think, that sort of thing (along with fixing up coding when people forget a square bracket) constitutes about 80-90% of what I do on here as a mod. I very rarely delete or edit posts if I find them offensive; only if I think they're an obvious contravention of the rules. I'm not trying to make your life difficult or impose some fundamentalist system on people; just help keep this place running smoothly and welcoming for all.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:06 pm
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Thanks David,

I don't doubt your motivation or intention, just your action.

Thanks for cleaning up the triple post, I'd already tried to minimise that by editing. In regard to fixing posts where someone left out a bracket, why wouldn't you leave that to the person to fix themselves?

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:29 pm
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Because often they don't, and when it comes to multiple embedded quotes, you can often end up with an indecipherable mess. It's not a problem; I enjoy doing it. Smile
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:54 pm
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1061 wrote:
David wrote:
WPT, I'm sorry you got that impression. It was a response to 1061's post, which was subsequently deleted after she re-edited it.

Stui, I've just posted a long response explaining my views on two specific issues and asking for any further critical feedback on my moderating style in general, and you respond to that by suggesting that I be less defensive and more self-reflective?

I'm not going to get into these games. I don't care what you think about my personality or maturity. I'm under no obligation to defend myself to you. Discuss the issues or move on.


Hey don't go blaming me, you did all this all by yourself.

But she does have some great earth moving equipment.


No you went far too far with your comments that were only about her weight and you know it too.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:58 pm
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David wrote:
Re:

1) Okay, I respect your view and I'll take it on board. I would be interested to hear what others think, though.

2) Is it an example of a tendency, or is it a one-off? Of course my beliefs inform how I interpret the rules, but I'm not making rules up on the spot or interpreting them in a novel fashion. As I posted on page 1, the rule reads as follows:

Quote:
Posts that are abusive, hateful or intolerant of the differences of others will be removed or edited and the posters may be warned.


I don't see anything there that suggests race and sexuality apply but weight doesn't. When a poster mocks Gina on the basis of her weight/appearance alone, that to me constitutes intolerance of the differences of others. My own views actually have nothing to do with it.

......


I utterly disagree on the thread title.

There is humour there & your view on this is fundamentalist IMO.

In fact not only was it funny it was apt.

Opera & soap opera.

It wasn't over till she sang FFS she rightly or wrongly got the last say through her lawyers.

I'm afraid you're wrong on this.

Yes I can understand that we shouldn't abuse people because of their weight but the application of rules to not only the thread title but what I wrote was wrong & an error of judgement on your part.

Anyway, let's not talk about the elephant in the room Rolling Eyes Razz

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1061 



Joined: 06 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:06 am
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watt price tully wrote:


Anyway, let's not talk about the elephant in the room Rolling Eyes Razz


Talking about taking it too far!
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:35 am
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WPT, would you approve of a racist or antisemitic joke being used in a thread title on Nick's, no matter how mild or funny some might find it? Would you complain if it was moderated? I think I already know the answer to that one.

I'm sorry you think that obese people, among the most despised, vilified and poorly represented social groups in our society, are not deserving of the same protections as others. But you don't write the rules for this forum, and neither do I. Thankfully, the owner and long-time moderators of this site consider that your right to make jokes at oppressed groups' expense is secondary to the right of all users and visitors to feel comfortable and welcome here. I support that principle, and as moderator will continue to uphold it.

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Last edited by David on Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:39 am
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David wrote:
WPT, would you approve of a racist or antisemitic joke being used in a thread title on Nick's, no matter how mild or funny some might find it? Would you complain if it was moderated?


David, of course not.

However David what I posted was not fattist. It was not denigrating the person because of her weight or size. That is your error. You were being literalist and misapplied the rules of Nicks to what I posted.

However, that is the bee in your bonnet.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:41 am
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1061 wrote:
watt price tully wrote:


Anyway, let's not talk about the elephant in the room Rolling Eyes Razz


Talking about taking it too far!


As HAL would say, I was waiting for you. Rolling Eyes

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:51 am
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watt price tully wrote:
David wrote:
WPT, would you approve of a racist or antisemitic joke being used in a thread title on Nick's, no matter how mild or funny some might find it? Would you complain if it was moderated?


David, of course not.

However David what I posted was not fattist. It was not denigrating the person because of her weight or size. That is your error. You were being literalist and misapplied the rules of Nicks to what I posted.

However, that is the bee in your bonnet.


With respect, you're wrong. Simply highlighting certain characteristics in a mocking way is sometimes sufficient to make people feel vilified, particularly when there is already so much prejudice surrounding that characteristic. I'm sure you can think of plenty of analogous examples involving race or gender or sexuality. Simply putting, say, the colour of someone's skin front and centre in a way that's meant to invoke laughter at that person's expenseeven without actually saying negative about itis generally frowned upon and for good reason.

I'm sure you can read more about these issues elsewhere, but the point is that when you frame a thread about Gina Rinehart with a quip about her weight, you're reducing her to that characteristic. This is exacerbated by the fact that she's so hated on this siteand clearly, you have no time for her. Are you surprised that such a thread led to a cruel and hateful fat joke within three posts? Do you think there would not have been more if I hadn't intervened? When you start a thread, you do have to take some responsibility for how these things might pan out.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:16 am
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David wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
David wrote:
WPT, would you approve of a racist or antisemitic joke being used in a thread title on Nick's, no matter how mild or funny some might find it? Would you complain if it was moderated?


David, of course not.

However David what I posted was not fattist. It was not denigrating the person because of her weight or size. That is your error. You were being literalist and misapplied the rules of Nicks to what I posted.

However, that is the bee in your bonnet.


With respect, you're wrong. Simply highlighting certain characteristics in a mocking way is sometimes sufficient to make people feel vilified, particularly when there is already so much prejudice surrounding that characteristic. I'm sure you can think of plenty of analogous examples involving race or gender or sexuality. Simply putting, say, the colour of someone's skin front and centre in a way that's meant to invoke laughter at that person's expenseeven without actually saying negative about itis generally frowned upon and for good reason.

I'm sure you can read more about these issues elsewhere, but the point is that when you frame a thread about Gina Rinehart with a quip about her weight, you're reducing her to that characteristic. This is exacerbated by the fact that she's so hated on this siteand clearly, you have no time for her. Are you surprised that such a thread led to a cruel and hateful fat joke within three posts? Do you think there would not have been more if I hadn't intervened? When you start a thread, you do have to take some responsibility for how these things might pan out.


I take no responsibility for 1061or what other people write.

Again you misapply the thread title - I said zero about her weight to denigrate her. Again your being far too literalist. I think you don't know how to say you got it wrong here.

1061 has her own issues & that's not for me to deal with or convenient for you to tie me in with.

I reckon you've been opportunistic here by using my thread to use a wider net that captures 1061 so as not to invariably single her individual posts out that some of her posts warrant.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:33 am
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No, I would have done exactly the same if Stui or Morrigu or Swoop or anyone else had posted it. I'm not 'out to get' 1061 and I'm not using other posters to do that or any of the other rubbish you're accusing me of. If her posts warrant removal, they'll be removed with no further consequences for anyone else, just like anybody else's would be.

In this case, your thread title was inappropriate and was edited accordingly. Can we move on?

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