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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Tannin wrote: | Your turn, David.  |
Um... ok. How about, it's not a war crime because the entire concept of a "war crime" is totally subjective and usually just something that we can accuse the other side of doing.
When there's so much uncontroversial killing of civilians during wars, even contemporary ones (see drone strikes, which hardly anyone seems to give a shit about), it's an exercise in convenient double standards to pick out two historical events on account of their scale and place in the public consciousness.
How was that? 
| Jezza wrote: | | David wrote: | | It sometimes seems like people understand the gravity of killing a single person but toss off the deaths of a couple of hundred thousand in a foreign country as if they were delousing a dog. |
Ever heard the old saying David that the "death of one person is a tragedy; the death of one million is a statistic"?
In any context where deaths occur on a large scale this quote rings true for mine even though it was quoted by a psychopathic dictator in Joseph Stalin and I think the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are no different in this context with the way everyone perceives those events 70 years ago. |
I have, and I think it does apply to some of the responses to these tragic events. Maybe the scale is simply too large for casual observers to feel anything in the way of empathy (beyond a vague sense of how terrible it all is).
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Nicely played, David.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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U in the flat earth society too?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Can you explain why you so glibly dismiss the conclusions reached by that article? Do you deny that the Japanese were concerned about Soviet invasion and that this may have been a factor in their surrender, or have you automatically assumed that anything which contradicts the dominant narrative must be false?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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It happened if can't be changed, if the Japanese had not bombed pearl harbour (plenty of civilians died ther too David), if they had not been so cruel, if they had not been so greedy, it would not of happened. What r u trying to prove? And why? Sorry but your anti USA stance shades it for me. I read most of it. No I can't discount it, but neither can it be proved, everyone is dead, let it go. It helps no one.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
I'm not sure that one of the most momentous acts of the 20th century should be dismissed as "just one of those things". The ramifications of those bombings and the ethical questions surrounding them are still being actively discussed to this day because they inform so much relevant debate – the use of nuclear weapons; the ethics of pre-emptive strikes; what and how much can justifiably be done to civilians in the service of 'the greater good'. So of course it's relevant and useful to discuss it.
The defensiveness of your reaction – a response that, I'm guessing, many people would have – suggests that you're not merely bored by this conversation, but that you're in fact quite invested in seeing the official narrative maintained. I think that's reason enough to lift up this particular rock and look under it again.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
I'm not sure that one of the most momentous acts of the 20th century should be dismissed as "just one of those things". The ramifications of those bombings and the ethical questions surrounding them are still being actively discussed to this day because they inform so much relevant debate – the use of nuclear weapons; the ethics of pre-emptive strikes; what and how much can justifiably be done to civilians in the service of 'the greater good'. So of course it's relevant and useful to discuss it.
The defensiveness of your reaction – a response that, I'm guessing, many people would have – suggests that you're not merely bored by this conversation, but that you're in fact quite invested in seeing the official narrative maintained. I think that's reason enough to lift up this particular rock and look under it again. |
maybe I am biased,
and indeed, so are you
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Enough about me, let's talk about the Pies. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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And there's nothing wrong with that – we all have our biases, and obviously they will inform our views on this topic like all others. But your earlier claim was that we shouldn't even be discussing this to begin with, and I reject that assertion completely.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Trying to analyse the ethics and morals of an event that happened 70 years ago through the lens of the present is an exercise in naval gazing futility IMHO.
You can look at all sorts of facts from the time but no matter how hard you try you can't strip away your personal biases informed and developed from living in a totally different culture in a different millennium.
(When I use the word "you" above it's as a general collective term, not aimed at any individual)
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| What's the point of designing and building such beautiful weapons if you're not going to use them on people? It's like having a star CHF and never playing him. |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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It worked, it worked!! Hasn't commented in here but he's back! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | Trying to analyse the ethics and morals of an event that happened 70 years ago through the lens of the present is an exercise in naval gazing futility IMHO.
You can look at all sorts of facts from the time but no matter how hard you try you can't strip away your personal biases informed and developed from living in a totally different culture in a different millennium.
(When I use the word "you" above it's as a general collective term, not aimed at any individual) |
I think I had this argument with Mugwump earlier in the thread. There's a place for cultural relativism, definitely, but at some stage you've got to ask whether ethics are about more than just what is considered right or wrong in a certain time and place. Indeed, I'm not sure if you can even have a useful discussion about ethics unless you can put cultural norms (whether it be our current ones or those of some other place, past or present) to one side.
For me, the use in discussing Hiroshima is it helps us to decide what we should do if we're faced with a similar situation in the future. It's kind of like looking back at something dumb (or not) that you did when you were a teenager – there's no point in beating yourself up about it or wishing that you'd had your current mindset back then, but if you realise it was dumb then it will at least inform your future decisions.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Look, the Americans had to use what was available to them at the time. The real weapons of subordination (McHale's Navy, I Dream of Jeannie and F Troop) were still under development and, as things turned out, wouldn't have been ready for at least 15 years. |
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