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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | I
On one level, a sniper is just like any other soldier—his role is to kill enemy soldiers, just in a slightly less chivalrous way. On the other hand, it is essentially the war equivalent of king-hitting someone from behind.
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So you still stand by this statement? You can't see why that's offensive?
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I can certainly see why some people might be offended by it, but I don't really care. I'm much more offended by the notion that things done by soldiers shouldn't be criticised.
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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| David wrote: | | I can certainly see why some people might be offended by it, but I don't really care. I'm much more offended by the notion that things done by soldiers shouldn't be criticised. |
Geoffrey Robertson here, Sniper spots enemy planting road side bombs as a school bus approaches. He can report what he sees or kills enemy and bombs now useless as school bus goes harmlessly passed full of innocent kids and a bus driver.
A s someone who worked with the Military for over 30 years I can assure you snipers only take out military targets, well intentionally.
And read up on Billy Sing, Australias gun sniper from WW1 who was shunned after the war from being half Chinese.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| ronrat wrote: | | David wrote: | | I can certainly see why some people might be offended by it, but I don't really care. I'm much more offended by the notion that things done by soldiers shouldn't be criticised. |
Geoffrey Robertson here, Sniper spots enemy planting road side bombs as a school bus approaches. He can report what he sees or kills enemy and bombs now useless as school bus goes harmlessly passed full of innocent kids and a bus driver.
A s someone who worked with the Military for over 30 years I can assure you snipers only take out military targets, well intentionally.
And read up on Billy Sing, Australias gun sniper from WW1 who was shunned after the war from being half Chinese. |
Thankyou, about time someone else called it.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| ronrat wrote: | | Geoffrey Robertson here, Sniper spots enemy planting road side bombs as a school bus approaches. He can report what he sees or kills enemy and bombs now useless as school bus goes harmlessly passed full of innocent kids and a bus driver. |
Umm... okay, I grant you that this is a possible situation a sniper might find themselves in. It's not really a typical one, though, is it? But I get the sense that what you're trying to ask is whether sniping can ever be morally acceptable, and that's not really the point I've been arguing. Of course snipers are tactically necessary in warfare, just like fighter pilots, tank operators and (nowadays) drones. Of course we can all imagine scenarios in which they save more lives than they end. But these are exceptions, because a sniper's role first and foremost is to kill.
Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick not having seen the film, but my impression of the basic purpose of American Sniper is that Eastwood wants to throw a challenge down to the audience by presenting a role that is generally seen as a bit dirty and unpleasant—consider the negative connotations of the word 'sniper' in everyday use—and arguing that "even this is an essential part of the war effort; even this person can be a hero". I was also hoping that, conversely, Eastwood might allow the necessity of sniping to shine a light on the inherent barbarity of warfare. That idea was all I was trying to explore, really, but we never got very far because of unhappiness over the analogy I used.
So, instead, I'll just post this article I read the other day, which—although shying away from anything that could be considered direct criticism—presents a fairly decent analysis of these moral quandaries:
http://m.smh.com.au/good-weekend/australias-deadliest-sniper-ian-robertson-never-did-the-arithmetic-20150121-12urq2.html
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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OK and pardon my gwamma and engwish and phwasing
Sniper is given information about a child suicide bomber who will be getting on board an over crowded school bus at a certain spot and sure enough their is the child as described in the information at the stop. Sniper looks through scope and see's all the tell tale signs of a bomb strapped to said child as they stand with others waiting for the bus.
Does the sniper shoot killing said child, maybe setting off the bomb and killing the small number of children waiting with them or wait and see what happens once they are on the bus with 50+ children, after all it's a child. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Haha, "Geoffrey Robertson" is right.
Now, what if the sniper sees a trolley car coming to a fork in the tracks...?
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | Haha, "Geoffrey Robertson" is right.
Now, what if the sniper sees a trolley car coming to a fork in the tracks...? |
David you never fail to disappoint, which in itself is extremely disappointing young man.  |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'm disappointed that you're disappointed! I would have thought you'd share my amusement at this thread's slow, irrevocable slide into an Ethics 101 seminar.
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| I would have expected me showing any lack of disappointment in you would have been a disappointment for you! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| 1061 wrote: | | David wrote: | Haha, "Geoffrey Robertson" is right.
Now, what if the sniper sees a trolley car coming to a fork in the tracks...? |
David you never fail to disappoint, which in itself is extremely disappointing young man. |
Avoiding the question because neither option is palatable is a luxury option available to the post mortem commentator. It's not a realistic option available to the people making decisions in real time. You work out where Davids experience and skill lie.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I wasn't avoiding the question. I'm happy to push or not push trolley car levers all day, I'm just not quite sure that that's what this thread is about.
(But if you are actually on the edge of your seat waiting to hear my response, the obvious answer is that you weigh up the balance of probabilities and try to take the option that will cause fewer deaths. Whether or not it's a sniper in that situation is mostly irrelevant.)
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Last edited by David on Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Brenny
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre
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I don't know what's been discussed on page 2 or 3 but about American Sniper the movie.
I loved it! I knew the outcome of the movie before I saw it as I knew a little about his story and how it ended.
It's the first time in my 30 years I've sat in a cinema and after the credits it's been dead silent and people just sitting there.
I would have loved to see more about his 'rehabilitation' and how he 'recovered' .
You saw a bit on the effects it had on him and the toll on his family. I almost got the feeling it made out his happy place as being in the warzone.
I also would have liked to see more of the relationship between him and his brother.
Though if I got what I wanted, it would have been a 3hr movie.
Still brilliant though and it got my heart racing so many time!
I don't believe the movie glorified anything at all. I guess it did in some ways as he was a 'hero' amongst his peers in the military, but his family were angry at him and annoyed.
It wasn't all just him sniping everybody off, he also faced a few very very tough decisions that actually make you think... shit and the potential outcome of that did play on my mind a bit during and after the film.
For me, I took out of the movie more about what war does to people and their families, more so than what actually happened over there.
If you go into it with the mind set that it's about war and killing and him sniping and all American we're the best and he is a legend, then you will come out very disappointed and you will probably hate the movie. If you go into it with more of an open mind and look at the deeper issues within the movie (as I said about the effects on him and the family), then I think it can be very touching, moving and somewhat outright scary! |
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