Aboriginal sovereignty

[David]

It may not be a topic that gets talked about much in the mainstream media, but, given the long history of the Aboriginal Tent Embassy and Indigenous land rights movements, is the issue of Aboriginal sovereignty one that deserves more airtime? And what does it actually mean — mere land reclamation, a kind of free associated territory (like Nunavut in Canada), or the creation of an actual independent state?

I'm not quite sure how much support there is for it out in the Indigenous community, and some will say it's hardly the most pressing consideration facing Aboriginal people today, but I do wonder if we should be talking about it more. Some Indigenous people, at least, don't seem to in any way identify as Australian or recognise the country as a legitimate entity, but I have no idea how widespread that sentiment is. If it's at all common, perhaps this should be on the table.

Now, don't get me wrong — I'm no nationalist, and it seems to me that nationalist movements tend to be one of the primary causes of the world's problems. Still, they do perhaps have their place in certain contexts, and I wonder if this might be one of them.

In any case, has anyone bothered to ask what Indigenous people think of this? Are our almost exclusively Anglo-European representatives in parliament really best-placed to be deciding Indigenous policies, or should Aborigines have their own executive?

Edit: sorry about the rambling and incoherent post... I've been thinking of starting a thread on this for ages, but struggled to put my thoughts in order about it. Perhaps you can help me out with that.

[ronrat]

Where are you going to put this so called Nirvana for them. They were never a Nation nor collective tribes. You might ask them and they will cherry pick a few prime locations,They had no structures to represent their hold to any particular location.

[David]

It's a fair point. Perhaps some areas of WA, NT and Queensland where something approaching a traditional way of life can be maintained. Although it makes things more unwieldy, a country can consist of scattered territories. Some parts of Armenia and Azerbaijan are like that, and of course many independent states like Russia and the United States have 'exclaves' like Kaliningrad and Alaska. It can be done.

Keep in mind that this wouldn't be a racial thing either. Aboriginal people who wanted to remain Australian citizens would be perfectly entitled to do so; this state would merely be for Indigenous people who didn't wish to recognise Australian law or culture and wanted to take part in the creation of their own constitution and exclusive territory.

I'm not making this out to be a nirvana or even necessarily the best solution. I just think it's an option worthy of being considered.

[Tannin]

[stui magpie]

I can't see sovereignty working. If some part was put aside as their sovereign country what kind of economy would they have? Do they get a piece that gives them all the mining tax money? What happens when that runs out? You have a nation with no income.

ATSIC would suggest that even limited self determination didn't work well.

My thoughts, for what they are worth (and I'm sure at least some will rip into me for these) is that there should be:
1. constitutional recognition
2. Continuation of Aboriginals being subject to Australian law as Australian citizens
3. While allowing those who want to live a traditional lifestyle to continue doing that, work with these groups on creating economies and jobs so that people can aspire to/achieve a level of financial self sufficiency through education and opportunity
4. For all, work on improving education and health outcomes
5. Aim toward "assimilating" more Aboriginals into "mainstream" society while treating their cultural idiosyncrasies with the same respect as any other cultural group
6. By all means encourage education in indigenous language and culture in the remote communities (and elsewhere), but also make English compulsory

There is no one simple solution as the problems and issues are myriad.

There is institutionalised welfare dependance, issues with alcohol; child abuse; poverty; health and educational outcomes........

For some reason, I always think of the similarity between Jews and Aboriginals.

Judaism is both a race and a religion. You can convert to Judaism without having Jewish blood and be accepted

To be considered Aboriginal you have a 3 part test involving blood lineage, self identification and community acceptance. So someone could claim Aboriginal blood and self identify but if the community doesn't accept them, they don't count. (I've witnessed an Elder refer to a person as "too white" meaning that they had lost their culture, not their colour) There's also instances people choose not to identify as Aboriginal and some isolated ones where a person is accepted by a community as Aboriginal even though it's known they have no blood line.

If we step aside from the blood issue and focus on the culture, treat it as a religion or a belief system like Judaism, we may be on a better path.

Sensitive integration is the answer IMO, not sticking a bunch of them in a sealed of area and saying "Look after yourself fellas". Lets' engage and include, get them involved in creating their own future while retaining their culture, not isolate and exclude.

[David]

That's eminently reasonable, Stui, and I agree with most of your points. But is that really what most Indigenous people actually want?

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can come up with solutions that seem logical and fair, but if the constituents don't agree then you're going to have problems implementing them.

I don't know enough to say for sure, but it seems there are a lot of Aboriginal people out there who don't necessarily want to be assimilated into mainstream society and don't want whites making their decisions for them.

[stui magpie]

^

Fair enough, they can opt out but is the right thing to do what people want or what's best for them? (without coming over all old school paternalistic, but that's what Governments are supposed to do)

[Nick - Pie Man]

Lack of an army might be an issue. China could invade this 'nation' and use it as a springboard to destroy the rest of us.

[Nick - Pie Man]

What if they declared war on Australia?

[David]

[pietillidie]

You'll find this a good example of just how uncritically the foundational "god" of modern thought, the nation state, is accepted by people.

Reduce most "moral" claims far enough and if you don't hit god bedrock or exceptionalist bedrock you hit nation state bedrock. Indeed, there's pretty much a tacit agreement that we don't go there, with this being one of the very few things most citizens actually agree on.

Democracy itself starts its own creation story in the gardens of the nation state*, and it seems hard for all but the most radical to conceive of the world in alternative terms. And, as I've commented in the past, the New Atheists and Libertarians, to name but two groups, are among the worst for subtly resting their case on it, meanwhile high fiving each other for stripping away the false gods of others.

When you think about it, sovereignty/nationhood/the nation state/citizenship, etc. is a barrier to coherent thought in all sorts of areas; for instance, you can't seriously believe in "free markets" if you don't believe in the free movement of labour, much the same as you can't seriously believe in "rights" if you only bother applying them to one place, and only then after some arbitrary (and convenient) historical date.

*I mean the city-state, the precursor thereto, but the problem of arbitrary boundary drawing is the pretty much identical, anyhow.

[David]

Welcome back PTID!

[pietillidie]

Thanks

[think positive]

Don't be a stranger

I am woman, hear me roar

I need someone decent to fight with!!

[David]

Thought I'd bump this thread with this latest story:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/jan/26/indigenous-protesters-reject-plan-for-constitutional-recognition

I wonder if this is just a fringe view, or whether there's substantial support for it in Indigenous communities? It's an interesting one.