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Woods 
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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Fascism is alive and well and being supported by our closest friends and allies, and our own indifference.
Unreported in the media here was a vote in the UN General Assembly on 27 Nov 2014 on a resolution about "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance” (69th Session, 3rd Committee, Plenary item 66(a)).
Only three countries voted against the resolution: USA, Canada, and Ukraine.
Australia to its shame abstained.
Thank you, Julie. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Woods wrote: | Fascism is alive and well and being supported by our closest friends and allies, and our own indifference.
Unreported in the media here was a vote in the UN General Assembly on 27 Nov 2014 on a resolution about "Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance” (69th Session, 3rd Committee, Plenary item 66(a)).
Only three countries voted against the resolution: USA, Canada, and Ukraine.
Australia to its shame abstained.
Thank you, Julie. |
As did 54 other countries. Always good to read between the lines:
http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/6228152
| Quote: | The resolution was brought forward by Russia at the UN General Assembly's Third Committee, which deals with human rights. It calls on nations to combat "glorification of Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance." It also urges countries to take legislative measures to end all forms of Holocaust denial.
...
The resolution calls on countries to "improve national legislation aimed at the prevention of hate speech" and expresses concern about the use of the Internet to propagate racism. It also cautions against advertising "aimed at exploiting the suffering of victims" of the Nazi regime during the Second World War.
...
The U.S. representative said she questioned the "overt political motives" behind Russia's resolution and similarly could not vote in favour.
Russia has claimed for months that neo-Nazis and right-wing extremists are working with Ukrainian nationalists. Last April, Russian President Vladimir Putin claimed his troops intervened in Crimea because he could see "neo-Nazis rearing their heads" in the Ukrainian government.
And, earlier this month, Putin told a German television program he was concerned right-wing nationalists in Ukraine could cause the country to "drift toward neo-Nazism." |
This was just another strike in Russia's propaganda war. The claim that the new Ukrainian government is fascist/neo-Nazi is something no-one takes seriously outside of Russia. It's true that there is some worrying neo-Nazi activity there at the moment, but Putin and the Russian media have from the beginning grossly exaggerated the extent of it in an attempt to discredit the removal of Putin's stooge Yanukovych.
This resolution was all about perpetuating that myth. As if Ukraine was ever going to back a human rights-oriented resolution proposed by a country that is currently in the process of invading it. Russia wanted a headline—"US and Ukraine vote in favour of Nazis"—and they got one.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:28 am; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Can we get back to business? |
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Woods
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | This was just another strike in Russia's propaganda war. The claim that the new Ukrainian government is fascist/neo-Nazi is something no-one takes seriously outside of Russia. |
Really?
The Neo-Nazi Question in Ukraine – Huffington Post (US) - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html
The Obama administration has vehemently denied charges that Ukraine's nascent regime is stock full of neo-fascists despite clear evidence suggesting otherwise. Such categorical repudiations lend credence to the notion the U.S. facilitated the anti-Russian cabal's rise to power as part of a broader strategy to draw Ukraine into the West's sphere of influence. Even more disturbing are apologists, from the American left and right, who seem willing accomplices in this obfuscation of reality, when just a cursory glance at the profiles of Ukraine's new leaders should give pause to the most zealous of Russophobes…
For starters, Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda. And his deputy, Dmytro Yarosh, is the leader of a party called the Right Sector which, according to historian Timothy Stanley, "flies the old flag of the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators at its rallies."
The highest-ranking right-wing extremist is Deputy Prime Minister Oleksandr Sych, also a member of Svoboda, who believes that women should "lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company." This is the philosophy underlying one of his "legal initiatives," according to the Kyiv Post, "to ban all abortions, even for pregnancies that occurred during rape."
The Svoboda party has tapped into Nazi symbolism including the "wolf's angel" rune, which resembles a swastika and was worn by members of the Waffen-SS, a panzer division that was declared a criminal organization at Nuremberg. A report from Tel-Aviv University describes the Svoboda party as "an extremist, right-wing, nationalist organization which emphasizes its identification with the ideology of German National Socialism."
Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists, CNN (US) - http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/06/opinion/speedie-ukraine-far-right/
Russian President Vladimir Putin says neo-fascist far-right groups are firmly behind the putsch -- coup d'etat -- in Kiev and questions the democratic credentials of "men with black masks and Kalashnikovs" who became the poster children of the Maidan for Russians. Does this assessment have any truth to it? In the fast-moving and chronically complex course of events in Ukraine, the issue has been debated from the beginning: the role of the far right in the events that led to the toppling of the Viktor Yanukovych government and in the present and future disposition of political power in the country. There are some known facts: First, far-right, anti-Semitic, anti-Russian and openly fascist groups have existed and do exist as a blight on modern Ukraine. A 2012 European Parliament resolution condemned the main -- but by no means most extreme -- ultra-right party, Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic." This extraordinary EU resolution contains 18 points of concern over policies embedded in laws of the Ukrainian Rada, or Parliament. A key paragraph reads that the EU "is concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine." The Parliament stresses that "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles."
Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists – The Telegraph (UK) - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
As Ukraine’s armed forces tighten the noose around pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country, the western-backed government in Kiev is throwing militia groups – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle. The Azov battalion has the most chilling reputation of all. Last week, it came to the fore as it mounted a bold attack on the rebel redoubt of Donetsk, striking deep into the suburbs of a city under siege…
The Azov men use the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf’s Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are openly white supremacists, or anti-Semites.
Ukraine has ignored the far right for too long – it must wake up to the danger - The Guardian (UK) - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/13/ukraine-far-right-fascism-mps
Ukrainians have already paid a very high price for ignoring the far right. According to systematic research into protests, members of the far right were the most visibly identified political agents in the Maidan protests, from the very beginning of the movement to the overthrow of Yanukovych. Moreover, they were relatively more visible in eastern and southern regions where Maidan did not have the majority support, thus pushing the local population even further away from the protest message. This was not a Russian media invention. On the contrary, it happened as a result of the preceding protest coalition of the centrist opposition parties with Svoboda. High far-right visibility was one of the factors which prevented Maidan from growing into a truly national movement against Yanukovych, and formed the ground for the civil war.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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As I said, the far-right exists, and the Ukrainian government does need to be doing more to control it. But the Russian government would have us believe that Svoboda (or even the actual neo-nazi parties to the right of it) wields significant power in the Ukrainian parliament. In fact, they only hold 7 of 450 seats. One Nation was almost as successful here! Indeed, you could probably argue that the current Australian government is much more right-wing than the Ukrainian incumbents.
And at the end of the day, even right-wing nationalists have a right to defend their country against invasion and annexation by a foreign power.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Woods
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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And as you said no one believes in Ukranian facists outside of Russia. Sure.
Your other lie is that Russia has invaded Ukraine. It hasn’t. The war has been going on for a year now. If Russia had invaded they would have overwhelmed the place in a few days.
I don’t think I’ve ever come across someone who openly supports Fascists on Nicks before. Congratulations. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Wow. You've really swallowed the Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker. Shall we have a look at what I wrote again?
| David wrote: | | The claim that the new Ukrainian government is fascist/neo-Nazi is something no-one takes seriously outside of Russia. |
To this you post articles about a far-right party (not quite neo-nazi; more tea party/One Nation) that holds 7 out of 450 seats in the Ukrainian parliament.
As for Russia not invading Ukraine, geewhiz. Apparently Putin's "keep denying the bleeding obvious until someone believes us" approach is winning a few people over.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Some would say you've swallowed the EU/US propaganda David. I would also add, if the far right is the will of the people, democratically speaking, then why should anyone 'control it'. If a country wants to go full blown National Socialist or Communist in democratic elections then that's up to them. Not sure they'll like what follows, but democracy doesn't just mean a two party centrist, moderate government, it can lead to anything and shouldn't be stopped from doing so (if you truly hold democracy as an ideal). |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| The Ukranian government relies heavily on fascist militias to do its dirty work. But let's not forget that the main reason the Russians have moved into parts of the Ukraine, is to let the US know they will not tolerate NATO moving into the Ukraine (as they have to other parts of the former Soviet Union) and further encircling Russia. In WWII the Nazis moved through the Ukraine when they invaded the Soviet Union and the Russians went on to lose over 25 million people to German Fascism. It's hardly surprising therefore that they don't like the idea of being militarily encircled by NATO. My own view is that the situation in the Ukraine could be resolved if the West made it clear they have no intention of ever having the Ukraine join NATO. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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NATO encroachment is certainly one of the more justifiable reasons for Putin's belligerence, but the real issue at the core of Ukrainian politics—and their relationship with Russia—over the last 10-20 years has been whether they will join the EU. You can look at Ukraine as a mere pawn in a new Cold War, but EU membership means more than just picking a side; to many Ukrainians, it means a kind of independence from the country that has, in various forms, tried to dictate its politics since time immemorial (often with horrific results).
The alternative, and this was where Yanukovych had them, was to be another client state of Russia like Belarus. Progressive Ukrainians fought for independence in Maidan Square, and Russia is determined to make them pay for their insolence.
Oh, and I must say it's quite rich for Russia or its defenders to talk about fascism in Ukraine. Look up 'fascist' in the dictionary and you'll get a picture of Putin and Medvedev. Still, if they keep pointing the finger in the other direction for long enough, some people will look.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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On the very week that Putin's appalling Litvinenko radiation murder comes to light with all the gruesome evidence to be made public - see http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/18/alexander-litvinenko-killers-big-mistake for te background - a new bloodthirsty Putin-loving Russian imperialist seems to have suddenly arrived, apparently from nowhere. Anyone who can call David, of all people, a fascist is fit to be certified. Let us hope that he goes promptly back to the same place he came from.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Woods
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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| Tannin wrote: | | On the very week that Putin's appalling Litvinenko radiation murder comes to light with all the gruesome evidence to be made public - see http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/18/alexander-litvinenko-killers-big-mistake for te background - a new bloodthirsty Putin-loving Russian imperialist seems to have suddenly arrived, apparently from nowhere. Anyone who can call David, of all people, a fascist is fit to be certified. Let us hope that he goes promptly back to the same place he came from. |
Are you, per chance, referring to me? |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Quote: | The postmortem examination carried out on Alexander Litvinenko was “probably the most dangerous ever conducted in the western world”, and confirmed that Litvinenko was the victim of acute radiation poisoning, an inquiry into his death heard on Wednesday.
Dr Nathaniel Cary, the consultant forensic pathologist who examined Litvinenko’s body, said he and other officials examining the corpse wore not one but two protective suits, two pairs of gloves taped at the wrists and large battery-operated plastic hoods into which filtered air was piped.
Litvinenko died on 23 November 2006 in the intensive care ward at University College hospital, London. His body was so radioactive that staff left it in situ for two days, still attached to life-support machines and drips.
Cary said that when he arrived at the scene he carefully disconnected various tubes. He put Litvinenko’s corpse into two body bags. He took a sample of muscle from the right thigh, the inquiry heard, to test for radioactive polonium.
The pathologist said that after this “very hazardous” recovery operation he carried out a postmortem on 1 December at London’s Royal hospital. His team included a second pathologist, a detective constable and a photographer, all wearing full protective gear.
A special radioactive protection officer was also on hand to wipe away any specks of blood on clothing. Ambulance staff stood by in case anyone collapsed or fainted - a potential “disaster”, given the circumstances.
“It’s been described as the most dangerous postmortem undertaken … I think that’s probably right,” Cary said. He and his colleagues had never encountered anything like this, he said, adding that this was the first known case of acute polonium poisoning anywhere in the world.
Alexander Litvinenko’s son, Anatoly, on his father’s murder: ‘He was trying to make Russia a better place’
Litvinenko had met two Russian contacts, Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, on 1 November 2006 in the Millennium hotel in central London. The two allegedly slipped polonium-210 into Litvinenko’s tea.
Speaking earlier, Ben Emmerson QC, acting for Litvinenko’s widow Marina, said there was no doubt Lugovoi and Kovtun were killers sent by Moscow, in an operation personally approved by Vladimir Putin.
The inquiry heard harrowing details of the poisoning’s aftermath. That evening Litvinenko began vomiting. He suffered from bloody diarrhoea. On 3 November he was admitted to Barnet and Chase hospital, north London.
Staff diagnosed gastroenteritis and gave him antibiotics. Over the next 10 days, however, Litvinenko’s condition worsened. Alarmingly, a biopsy revealed complete bone marrow failure – the result of alpha radiation infecting other cells, Cary said.
On 17 November Litvinenko was admitted to the haematology unit of University College hospital. By this point, Cary said, his white blood-cell levels had collapsed, his liver and kidney function had deteriorated and his hair had fallen out. Litvinenko’s throat and oesophagus were severely inflamed – all signs he had ingested poison.
He suffered cardio-respiratory failure twice, with doctors forced to resuscitate him. The third time, however, they were unable to save him and at 11pm on 23 November he died. Throughout his illness Litvinenko’s symptoms had confounded medical staff. They had quickly suspected radiation poisoning but tests for conventional gamma radiation had proved negative.
According to Emmerson, doctors then had an inspired hunch. On 21 November they brought in an atomic weapons expert who suggested testing for alpha radiation – much rarer, and emitted by virtually unknown polonium-210. Doctors took a urine and blood sample.
Confirmation that Litvinenko had swallowed fatal quantities of polonium, far in excess of known survivability limits, came just hours he died,
Cary said his postmortem, carried out in sweltering protective suits, confirmed acute radiation poisoning. If doctors had not taken last-minute samples for alpha radiation testing the cause of death would have remained a mystery, he said.
Another forensic scientist, Dr Benjamin Swift, said the case was the UK’s only recorded incident of polonium poisoning. Emmerson asked Swift if Litvinenko’s assassins may had chosen this “vanishingly rare” type of poison because they assumed it wouldn’t necessarily be detected. Swift replied: “Potentially yes”.
The inquiry also heard anonymous evidence from a senior nuclear scientist who had carried out extensive tests on a range of sites contaminated with polonium-210. They included the Pine Bar – where Litvinenko met Lugovoi and Kovtun and drank the ill-fated cup of tea – as well as in various London hotel rooms used by the visiting Russians.
The inquiry was shown sophisticated three-dimensional images, colour-coded in green, yellow, red and purple, with purple indicating the highest levels of contamination. The scientist – identified as A1, and the head of nuclear forensics at the UK’s Atomic Weapons Establishment – said that less than a millionth of a gram of polonium would be enough to kill.
Huge amounts of contamination were found in an eighth-floor room of the Sheraton hotel, where Lugovoi stayed between 25 and 28 October 2006. The polonium traces found in the bin of his bathroom were “off the scale”, with high levels also found in the bath, basin and toilet seat, the inquiry was told.
The atomic scientists tested the teapot from the Millennium hotel – and found “full-scale deflection”, indicated by purple rectangles, in the middle and spout. There were further high readings on the chairs were Lugovoi and Kovtun had sat, especially on one right armrest.
The inquiry heard on Tuesday that Lugovoi and Kovtun first tried to poison Litvinenko during an earlier trip to London on 16 October. Their efforts were unsuccessful, as Litvinenko ingested a much smaller dose of polonium on this occasion and survived. Lugovoi made three dedicated trips to London around the time of the murder, and Kovtun two.
In an interview on Tuesday in Moscow, meanwhile, Lugovoi dismissed the inquiry as a “judicial farce” and said he would not be participating. He told the Echo of Moscow radio station there was “nothing” in the inquiry documents that proved his guilt. Emmerson said he still wanted Lugovoi and Kovtun to give evidence by video link.
The inquiry chairman, Sir Robert Owen, agreed but said: “I was careful to express the hope rather than the expectation”.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/28/litvinenko-postmortem-dangerous-inquiry-death
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oh really. What else did he say? |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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HAL, it may have been reported elsewhere that he said that "There is little in the world so pointless as a debate between a whole bunch of people who haven't read a resolution of the UN General Assembly about whether or not that resolution should have been supported by their government."
Then again, that may not have been reported.
The main point to take from this thread, so far, seems to me to be that if someone offers you Polonium 210, you should politely decline and run away very fast (not necessarily in that order). |
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