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Joel 
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| stui magpie wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: | And here's Stui dishing it out to Rudd, Gillard and the Unions...again. 
This thread is dead, buried and cremated. |
Mate, read what I wrote, it's all factual whether you like it or not. |
Yep.....
Just like their industry super fund PR machine. A well oiled machine. |
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Joel
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| Culprit wrote: |
Bang the dollar is now below US 80 cents and they are not rushing to keep them open. |
A bit hard when the majority of your workforce is already gone. |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Mate, read what I wrote, it's all factual whether you like it or not.
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You really need to buy a dictionary.
Opinions are not facts! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
Mate, read what I wrote, it's all factual whether you like it or not.
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You really need to buy a dictionary.
Opinions are not facts! |
I know that, which is why unlike most of the opinion in this thread, i wrote facts. I even paid Krudd a compliment.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | Higher wages lead to inflation, inflation destroys savings. Higher wages lead to higher costs. It is WAY more expensive to live in Australia than almost anywhere else in the world. |
Haven't read the whole thread, but just thought I'd jump in here with a question: what's the problem with higher costs if wages are rising accordingly? Isn't it all relative?
Personally, I'm less bothered by high costs than I am by lack of universal access to a basic standard of living. For me, it seems obvious that societies like the US with very low minimum wages and very large wage gaps are much more susceptible to the latter problem. A strong minimum wage and high tax rates for upper income brackets ensures workers' basic needs are met and also makes a 'big' government possible, which in turn leads to more public-funded projects and industries. As far as I can tell with my limited understanding of economics, this social democratic approach seems to produce expensive, yet high-quality societies. This is a much healthier goal than allowing fear of inflation to drive down standard of living, imho (which is not to say that we should be blasé about such things—a strong, responsibly managed economy is still essential. It's a delicate balancing act.)
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I even paid Krudd a compliment. |
Oh dear. I'm sad to hear that. Although I argue with you all the time, I reckon you are a better than decent bloke. Get well soon mate.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Why keep looking at the USA when I gave examples of European countries with no minimum wage but high standards of living and lower unemployment than their EU counterparts with a minimum wage? The USA also has on average higher wages than us when looking at purchasing parity, as do many other nations with lower or even no minimums. The USA also has a minimum wage, there are only certain industries that are allowed below it (as long as tipping puts employee wages over it).
And yeah, higher wages lead to higher costs and lower wages lead to lower costs. So why artificially inflate wages, leading to higher costs anyway and also much higher unemployment?
If a business in this country wanted to scrape the bottom of the wage barrel, then they're going to get 0 applicants, and anyone who was desperate enough to work for $5 an hour is no worse off than being on the dole, except they're getting back into the employment market and not playing Xbox all day. It would give that person stuck on the dole an option (no worse than work for the dole) and a choice to accept less than standard remuneration for their labour.
In Australia we have a feeling that high minimum wage laws are just 'right' but the evidence doesn't necessarily point that way. Of course in the absence of a minimum wage there still needs to be some kind of 'social safety net' such as tax credits for low income workers. Also collective bargaining becomes much more necessary, so unions might find themselves relevant again.  |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | A strong minimum wage and high tax rates for upper income brackets ensures workers' basic needs are met and also makes a 'big' government possible, which in turn leads to more public-funded projects and industries. |
You don't actually need high tax rates for the upper income brackets. All you need is to make sure that the bastards actually pay their tax in the first place. Here in Australia, most ordinary working people on wages and salaries in the middle income brackets (say $40 to $80 or $100k) pay vastly more tax than the wealthy do, and that's because of the many massive loopholes we let them crawl through to avoid their responsibilities, loopholes which are unavailable to the rest of us. For example, negative gearing, family trust rorts, overseas tax haven rorts, superannuation rorts and concessions, capital gains tax exemptions.
Australia is probably the only country in the world where the money you spend buying your first house is taxed at the full marginal rate, but the money you spend buying your second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth house is not taxed.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | I even paid Krudd a compliment. |
Oh dear. I'm sad to hear that. Although I argue with you all the time, I reckon you are a better than decent bloke. Get well soon mate. |
Cheers mate, I managed to avoid going to the shower again and instead grabbed a bottle of Cab Shiraz and a beer.
I'm feeling much better. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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No worries. Least said soonest mended. Uh ... but just on your little moment - which I promise I won't mention again - I trust you locked the door first and washed your hands carefully afterwards? 
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | | David wrote: | | A strong minimum wage and high tax rates for upper income brackets ensures workers' basic needs are met and also makes a 'big' government possible, which in turn leads to more public-funded projects and industries. |
You don't actually need high tax rates for the upper income brackets. All you need is to make sure that the bastards actually pay their tax in the first place. Here in Australia, most ordinary working people on wages and salaries in the middle income brackets (say $40 to $80 or $100k) pay vastly more tax than the wealthy do, and that's because of the many massive loopholes we let them crawl through to avoid their responsibilities, loopholes which are unavailable to the rest of us. For example, negative gearing, family trust rorts, overseas tax haven rorts, superannuation rorts and concessions, capital gains tax exemptions.
Australia is probably the only country in the world where the money you spend buying your first house is taxed at the full marginal rate, but the money you spend buying your second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth house is not taxed. |
I love it when you talk sense.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Sorry, it's my time of the month. Back to normal by Monday.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Yes, let us get back to it's his or her time of the month . |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: |
[Some misleading chart]
Minimum wage doesn't give low end workers a 'liveable wage', it prices them out of the market and leaves them unemployed. Why would someone on the dole care if a boss is driving a BMW when they're catching the bus to a job network provider?
All the focus is on people who earn a lot vs the middle classes, none of whom are effected by minimum wage laws. The laws impact the bottom of the social classes by denying employment to low skilled workers.
“A minimum wage law is, in reality, a law that makes it illegal for an employer to hire a person with limited skills.” - Milton Friedman |
Prices them out? Have you even thought that through for two seconds? There are way too many frictions for that to take place. There are whole classes of jobs that cannot get priced out because they cannot be automated or offshored.
Please save me the time and tell us which countries in the EU you're talking about so we can assess the frictions. You know full well the policy settings of the EU cause intra-European asymmetries, but have chosen to mislead people instead. Sometimes its the open borders, other times it's the hidden protectionism.
Have you ever wondered who McDonald's in Australia is going to employ apart from young people regardless of a minimum wage? And you know full well profitable companies are not going to pull out of Australia.
All your fundamentalist economics will do is increase the yawning gap between productivity and real wage growth. No amount of pretend concern for unemployed youth with 1920s job skills who need quite different help can cover that fact.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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This is not particularly complicated.
This is the lowest common denominator approach. Merely another grubby ideological attempt to profit at the expense of workers pay & conditions with some loaded terms such as: flexibility & choice. Yeah right.
Free enterprise for the poor & socialism for the rich. Nothing like the free market economy.
May the Mad Misogynist Miners Monk keep it up especially with that terribly nice chappie Mr Charisma, what's his name? Eric Abetz, that's right. Another gift for the ALP.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough†Kinky Friedman |
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