How our Government is seen overseas.

[member34258]

http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnSYD10558.html

[stui magpie]

Agreed. That article is disgraceful.

[sherrife]

What are your problems with the article Stui?

I think it's pretty spot on, unfortunately.

[stui magpie]

I don't like the whole dragging up the "race" card. Bouncing from refugees, to the NT, to Hansen...all trying to prove a point somehow.

In my experience, the ones who shout "racist" the loudest, are the racists.

[nomadjack]

Did you stop and think Stui that maybe there is actually a pattern there of the coalition using racially loaded issues in election campaigns to appeal to the base instincts of certain groups of voters? FFS are you seriously suggesting the timing of this is coincidental?

[stui magpie]

I'm not blind or stupid Nomadjack, but did you stop to think that maybe it actually is coincidental?

As far as I'm aware, Kevin 07 has endorsed the decision, not argued with it. The silence from the state labour governments has been deafening fom what I've seen.

So who's trying to turn it into a political issue? Conspiracy theorists?

[nomadjack]

Labor has said it would maintain the capping system which is endorsed by the UNHCR. It's not the cap or the reduction in refugees from Africa that is the issue as it is an important part of prioritising the refugee program depending upon which part of the work is in most need at any given time. The issue is the shift in how the cap on accepting refugees from Africa has been justified by the government. Until very recently the shift in focus of the refugee program has been publicly justified by the government, including by the current minister, as being driven by the need to prioritise refugees from our own region, such as from Burma whose needs are more urgent than refugees from areas such as Somalia and Sudan. Suddenly in an election campaign, this justification has been shifted to 'they are not assimilating' very well so we need to slow things down. It's nothing more than populist bullshit designed to appeal the same crowd that voted for Hanson in 1998.

As for the other 'coincidental' race issues you mention that have arisen? Let's suspend disbelief and put aside Howard's anti-Asian immigration agenda in 1989 for a second and look at his track record.

Are you suggesting that the governments approach to the refugee issue in the 2001 federal election wasn't purely politically driven? That it's adoption of more stringent immigration controls, cuts to funding of migrant resources and welfare services, the abolition of ATSIC, and it's reaction to Mabo and Wik weren't driven by Hanson's rise in 1997 and her success at the QLD state election in 1998? That the latest push to improve Aboriginal health and welfare in the NT by sending in the army is not politically driven? (BTW the authors of the report that the government has used to justify intervention have since said what the government has done goes against everything they suggested. And health professionals on the ground in the areas concerned are refusing to cooperate because they know the intervention is counterproductive.)

Conspiracy theory? FFS if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck over and over again, chances are it's a duck. You're not a fool Stui and don't come across as a bigot. Don't try and excuse the inexcusable. I'll cop the Libs position on almost any other issue including IR as being at least driven by a genuinely felt (no matter how misguided in my eyes in some areas) sense of trying to do the right thing. But on race under Howard they have thoroughly disgraced themselves and what the party has traditionally stood for.

[HAL]

What specifically brings the shift in how the cap on accepting refugees from Africa was justified by the government to mind? Do you still it? Ask me another question. Is not driven also latest push to improve Aboriginal health and welfare in the NT by sending in the army? What do you look like? Is that your final answer? If you could have any kind of robot what would it be? Are we still talking about Don't try and excuse the inexcusable?

[London Dave]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/african-dossier-renews-racial-tensions/2007/10/04/1191091281217.html

[stui magpie]

Nomadjack, you've got some good arguments, subjective though they may be. You've drawn a valid conclusion based on facts. That I don't happen to agree with you, doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

IMO, the difference with the whole Tampa and children overboard theing were that they happened at the time when the opposition were leading an outcry over the governments treatment of refugees. That incident served to de rail some of the outcry and justify (innappropriately as it turned out) the governments position.

This situation appears to be different in that there has been no major swing or outcry either way until now. If it's a populist move, I would think it's a bad one because it's actually devisive and the federal opposition has tacitly condoned it. Therefore no point of difference. It should serve to polarise people around the opinions they already had rather than sway people to one party or the other.

Maybe I overestimate the intelligence of the electorate and under estimate the number of bigots who want to bring back a white australia policy.

As I said earlier, I support the move to pause african immigration. Note, I said Pause, not stop, until more work and effort is put in place to help these people in assimilating. What a lot of them have coped with is beyond most people's comprehension and simply sticking them in a house somewhere and giving them access to food, clothing and education is no where near enough. That only satisfies the basic human needs. Fix the machine, then start bringing them back in.

In relation to gangs, I don't think these guys are any more prone to "gang" related behaviour than others. It's completely understandable that people who've a shared culture, background and experience would choose to associate with each other for support.

And London Dave, to be honest your comments remind me of every expat who went to England in the 70's then sat over there and threw rocks back at Australia for being an uncultured backwater. Germaine Greer syndrome. If you like it that much over there, then please be my guest and stay.

As far as your comments about terrorism, which are completely irrelevent to the thread, there may be a reason why Londoners are so stoic in the face of terrorism compared to Aussies. Having the shit bombed out of you in the WWII blitz then decades of terrorism from the IRA would tend to do that to you.

[nomadjack]

That's just a cop out Stui. It's not subjective or a matter of opinion at all. The facts clearly show that the Howard government has repeatedly misled and manipulated the Australian electorate using race based issues to try and gain political advantage. Everyone in politics knows it and many, including a hell of a lot of Liberals are disgusted by it. Howard manufactured a supposed threat to suburban backyards out of Mabo and Wik despite the High Court explicitly finding that freehold title overode native title. It has thumbed it's nose at reconciliation and abolished ATSIC while ignoring and actively covering up rorts that were 100 times worse at AWB. It manufactured a 'refugee invasion' threat, linked the refugees to terrorism and then doctored evidence to try and paint them as the type of people who would deliberately drown their children. And now it is at it again playing dog-whistle politics to the Hanson crowd in an election campaign. If you want further proof you might want to ask Andrews where the policy work and the increase in funding is for support services for refugees from African communitiesto help them assimilate into the Australian community? What? Per capita funding has actually been cut over the past decade? Hmm, how strange. You'd think if they were actually concerned about the issue and not just the political mileage they can make out of it they might actually have done something constructive. If people can't see it is purely motivated by the politics of bigotry they are fools and if they don't call it for what it obviously is they are condoning it. Simple as that.

[stui magpie]

Mate, I don't think it's a cop out and nor do I agree that your facts are totally objective.

You obviously spend a lot more time than I do going thru this sort of stuff so I'm not going to challenge you on the facts, but the conculsions you draw from them are to a degree, IMO, still subjective. An opinion is still only an opinion even if it is a popular one.

You are obviously pretty passionate about ths stuff and good on you. I'm not to the same degree by any stretch and I'm not about to start trying to defend Howard in all the things you list because I don't have enough knowledge to do it properly.

[London Dave]

[stui magpie]

Geez, touched a nerve did I London Dave?

I make an observation about you sounding like other expats and you call it a pointless character bash and decend to insulting stereotypes.Nice work.

I'd love to know how you come to the conclusion that we collectively shit ourselves every time the government says boo. Is that something you concluded from reading the Australian media, which you also disparage?

Pardon me while I find my mokko's and go and put the new front wheel on the dirtbike.

[London Dave]