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Royal Commission into Domestic Violence

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:00 pm
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In case anyone wasn't paying attention, notice the difference between Wokko's view (largely considering women as perpetrators of domestic violence and men as victims) and my view, which has a much broader focus on victims of violence in any place (at home or elsewhere).

Wokko is pointing out that not all victims of violence in the home are women, and that not all perpetrators are men. Fair enough: I think his view has some merit, though perhaps he goes a bit too far with it. Be that as it may, his point has very little to do with my point.

My point is that we keep trying to compartmentalise violence, as if violence in the bathroom is different to violence on the patio is different to violence in the car park is different to violence on the footpath outside McDonalds. What a rubbish notion! Violence is violence and victims are victims. Most of the victims are in fact men, but a great many women are assaulted too, as are children. Not many of the perpetrators are women, nevertheless members of both sexes commit assaults, just as members of both sexes are victims.

By mindlessly focusing on the fact that a small number of men commit most of the acts of violence (an even smaller number of women commit some of it, but as Wokko points out, this is largely ignored), far too many campaigners blind themselves to the fact that the majority of victims are male. Violence, contrary to their bullshit PR, isn't something men do to women, it's something a small number of people (mostly male) do to a large number of people (again, mostly male, but with a very sizable minority of women, far too large a minority to be ignored).

FFS, it's time we realised that the problem is violence. Full stop. It's not "domestic violence" or "street violence", or "violence against Pakistanis", or "violence against women", or "violence in the schoolyard", or any other specific category. It's just violence. We need to deal with it. Pronto.

I can think of a few measures which could help (some of them a little, some of them a lot), but I don't pretend to have all the answers. What I do have is the correct question, which is not "what do we do about domestic violence" or "what do we do about street violence", or "what do we do about violence against Pakistanis", or "what do we do about violence against women", or "what do we do about violence in the schoolyard", it is "what do we do about violence"?

Get the question right first. Then start looking for answers.

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HAL 

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:03 pm
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Tell me what you think about violence.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:03 pm
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I have some sympathy for what you're saying, Tannin, but isn't it at least somewhat helpful to break a problem into smaller areas of focus and work to address them?

It's a bit like saying that we should deal with the "drug problem" as a homogenous phenomenon instead of treating, say, methamphetamine and marijuana use differently.

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Wokko Pisces

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:07 pm
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Just a slight correction to an otherwise brilliant post, I don't consider men largely the victims and women largely the perpetrators, I gave the figure as 1 in 3 men are victims of domestic violence. The reason I'm being loud about that large minority is the dismissal of male victims of violence, silence surrounding the issue and the very loud and visible campaigns for male on female domestic violence that are hardly hurting for the lack of my voice.

Perpetuation of males as disposable and women as needing protection from men just annoys the crap out of me. Hence my conclusion that some form of conflict resolution or avoidance training might be of some use, but like most crimes I don't know if there is any getting through to the small number of recidivist perpetrators.
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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:07 pm
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PS: cheers, Stui, no worries. I could perhaps have spelled out the background more clearly, but I've done that before on this forum on this topic and it seemed too boring to repeat it all.

But (in my latest post) I just did anyway. Sad But that was on my proper computer with a proper keyboard, which makes everything easier. On my netbook, every post is an exercise in tedium as I battle with the tiny screen and midget keyboard. (Not to mention te broken "h" key, wic leaves me typing gibberis alf te time and aving to correct it.)

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:08 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Just a slight correction to an otherwise brilliant post, I don't consider men largely the victims and women largely the perpetrators,


Sorry Wokko, I did not mean to suggest that you did. You were very clear on that in your original post.

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Tannin Capricorn

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:33 pm
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David wrote:
I have some sympathy for what you're saying, Tannin, but isn't it at least somewhat helpful to break a problem into smaller areas of focus and work to address them?


Often, yes, it is helpful. At other times it's useless. In this case we seem to be having an inquiry to address about a quarter or a third of the problem. (I can't remember the actual numbers, but the point remains the same whether it's actually 19% or 38% - we are only addressing a small part of the whole problem.)

Well, addressing 25% of a problem is at least better than addressing 0% of it, so good luck to the Royal Commission. In any case, as I said earlier, my feeling is that we won't get much progress on tackling the problem as a whole until some of the more prominent part-problem campaigners get a clue and lift their eyes to look at the whole thing, so this Royal Commission might help in that a bit as well.)

David wrote:
It's a bit like saying that we should deal with the "drug problem" as a homogenous phenomenon instead of treating, say, methamphetamine and marijuana use differently.


No. It's like having a patient dying of typhoid and getting obsessive about treating the cough, meanwhile ignoring the runny nose, the headache, the diarrhea, the fever and the joint pain. None of those things are the problem. They are just different symptoms of the actual problem, which is typhoid, and although it's good to provide palliative care (such as asprin for the headache) you won't ever get anywhere treating typhoid until you start attacking the bacteria (with, for example, antibiotics), and you won't ever, ever, ever get on top of the disease and stop it breaking out afresh every little while until you start getting ruthless about letting sewage into drinking water.

In this case, the proximate problem is violence and the underlying problem is both the causes of violence (which we know quite a lot about, though nowhere near as much as we should) and the all-too-common failure of the normal moderating mechanisms to restrain it. (We need to know more about this too, but again we already know enough to make good progress.)

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Morrigu Capricorn



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:22 pm
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If they are truly serious about addressing the issues they will include a serious review of the Family Law Court and in particular the Child Support Agency - the current system is disgraceful and genuinely discriminates against decent men who want to have a meaningful relationship with and provide for their children!

The attitude of the CSA staff towards men - not Current Affair/ Herald Sun " dead beat dads" has to be experienced for the bias to be understood - gobsmacking!

I do some volunteer work on the end of a phone - men incredibly distressed as they have been falsely accused of abuse of their children to deny access is not uncommon - they are usually suicidal or homicidal.

Not for one moment am I remotely suggesting that any of this excuses violence - I grew quick so at 15 and 6 foot tall when my father yet again went to hit my mother I dropped him to the floor - he left and was never seen again thankfully- but I really can understand how men with less than adequate coping skills, no social support and a complete dearth of social services to assist and counsel end up reacting violently.

IMHO - the Terms of Reference need to be broad if this RC is to genuinely achieve anything

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swoop42 Virgo

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:28 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Just a slight correction to an otherwise brilliant post, I don't consider men largely the victims and women largely the perpetrators, I gave the figure as 1 in 3 men are victims of domestic violence. The reason I'm being loud about that large minority is the dismissal of male victims of violence, silence surrounding the issue and the very loud and visible campaigns for male on female domestic violence that are hardly hurting for the lack of my voice.

Perpetuation of males as disposable and women as needing protection from men just annoys the crap out of me. Hence my conclusion that some form of conflict resolution or avoidance training might be of some use, but like most crimes I don't know if there is any getting through to the small number of recidivist perpetrators.


I'd take it a step further and say the life of a male is treated far more cheaply than that of a woman in the media and society in general.

Why is it always women and children first in crisis situations and why do media outlets always highlight the involvement of women in such occurrences?

Okay I'll give you children first but why is the life of some female stranger worth more than mine?

I'd put my mum before me but I'm so so on my sisters. Laughing

But it goes much further, broader and serious than that when it comes to news reporting and the distinct impression I get is that the death of a male or indeed many males at a time is seen as part of the course.

For every woman killed at the hands of a man in the world each day it wouldn't surprise me if the figure of men killing men was 100 times or more higher.

What this had to do with domestic violence I do not know but like you I'm constantly annoyed how men are seen as far more expendable to society than women.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:29 pm
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David wrote:
I have some sympathy for what you're saying, Tannin, but isn't it at least somewhat helpful to break a problem into smaller areas of focus and work to address them?

It's a bit like saying that we should deal with the "drug problem" as a homogenous phenomenon instead of treating, say, methamphetamine and marijuana use differently.


Not often we agree but yeah, totally Wink

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:42 pm
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Quality post, Morrigu.

Swoop, you are right, of course. Perhaps this is why we ignore the majority of victims of violence (i.e., men) and concentrate on the (nevertheless large) minority (women). Men are supposed to just soak up violent abuse without complaint. Nobody cares about them.

And I'll bet you Sydney to a brick that under-reporting amongst male victims is even higher than it is amongst female victims.

Like you, Swoop, I can't quite tease out the link between the devaluation of male victims; the devaluation of women more generally (i.e., their lesser everyday social status and importance, unless they are "victims", which suddenly makes them more important instead; and the devaluation of all humanity which is violence .....

Oh to hell with it. It's late and I've said enough for one day. Let's just say that I think the feminist analysis of patriarchy, like the Marxian analysis of economics, has a very great deal going for it and provides richer, more useful insights than any other approach, but (exactly like Marxian economics) takes a wrong turn just before the last chapter and winds up with too many blind-alley conclusions. Just the same, it's probably the place to start.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:40 am
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Tannin wrote:
Quality post, Morrigu.

Swoop, you are right, of course. Perhaps this is why we ignore the majority of victims of violence (i.e., men) and concentrate on the (nevertheless large) minority (women). Men are supposed to just soak up violent abuse without complaint. Nobody cares about them.

And I'll bet you Sydney to a brick that under-reporting amongst male victims is even higher than it is amongst female victims.

Like you, Swoop, I can't quite tease out the link between the devaluation of male victims; the devaluation of women more generally (i.e., their lesser everyday social status and importance, unless they are "victims", which suddenly makes them more important instead; and the devaluation of all humanity which is violence .....

Oh to hell with it. It's late and I've said enough for one day. Let's just say that I think the feminist analysis of patriarchy, like the Marxian analysis of economics, has a very great deal going for it and provides richer, more useful insights than any other approach, but (exactly like Marxian economics) takes a wrong turn just before the last chapter and winds up with too many blind-alley conclusions. Just the same, it's probably the place to start.


The majority of men who are victims of violence are not victims of spousal abuse, it's not hidden behind the bedroom door, it's not kept secret for years and years and years.

What about the one punch campaign, all you see is men drop. And of course, because they are the majority of victims of this kind of violence.

I really don't get all the angst here.

I'm sure there is more hidden male victims, same as with rape. But that's another problem, and needs to be dealt with another way. As for bringing the family court into it, giving men an apparently valid excuse for violence, well the mind boggles.

I'm sure there are woman who lie. I'm also sure there's men out there lying about not doing it, maybe even believing it themselves. I'm even more sure there is woman denying being a victim.

Maybe I have my own agenda. But at least it ain't twisted. Let the good come out of this commission. Save some victims, male or female, and save some children,

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:22 am
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think positive wrote:
I'm sure there is more hidden male victims, same as with rape. But that's another problem, and needs to be dealt with another way. As for bringing the family court into it, giving men an apparently valid excuse for violence, well the mind boggles.


Is male victimisation really "another problem"? Domestic violence is domestic violence, whoever the perpetrator and whoever the victim. It all needs to be dealt with seriously.

On the second part, I think we need to get beyond "excuse" rhetoric, particularly on this topic. If we want to lessen the incidence of domestic violence, we need to be addressing all of its causes, and that has to start with what's causing the perpetrators to act violently in the first place (whether that be trauma, mental illness, dysfunctional relationships or general unhappiness). If men are being treated poorly by family courts and social services, and this is a significant factor in the incidence of domestic abuse, then of course that's going to be a factor worth addressing.

This royal commission will undoubtedly focus on matters like legal responses to domestic violence, effective reporting, intervention, therapeutic support for victims and so on. But if it's going to achieve anything of significance, its primary concern must be exploring the causes of domestic violence and developing stronger prevention mechanisms.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:32 am
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David wrote:
But if it's going to achieve anything of significance, its primary concern must be exploring the causes of domestic violence and developing stronger prevention mechanisms.


Hopefully the RC will bring in real people who have been on the receiving end of DV rather than a bunch of wanna be jock/jockets who think they know it all but have never had a hand raised in anger against them.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:40 am
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Most certainly, but as I was saying, there's more to this issue than just victimhood. Expert opinion is absolutely vital.
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