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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| jackcass wrote: | | Gone Critical wrote: | Will preface these remarks by saying I am a massive fan of Bucks. Been watching the Pies for a long time and he is the best player I have seen at the club by a margin. Also a great leader and seems a great man.
Nonetheless he will come under a bit of heat as a coach if we go down any further. He inherited a great list. The 2010-11 team is clearly the best list Collingwood has had since the 1930's IMHO. It was also relatively young so I certainly had an expectation we could contend for a while. Bucks coached well in 2012 and injuries and poor JMac really scuppered that season. 4 ACLs was cruel. 2013 and 2014 were also significantly injury riddled so he has excuses. However he has also presided over a time when we have lost a lot of A grade or near A grade players who still had plenty of years left. Beams, Daisy, Shaw, Heretier.
There is not much of that team left but there is some top line talent still there. Think Pendles, Cloke, Reid, Sidey, Brown as well as good foot soldiers in Sack, Toovs and Blair. Bucks needs to get the young blokes up and going while the A graders above are still near their best. That's a shrinking time line. Alternative is he has done a total rebuild and completely dismantled the great list he was handed.
So while some events have worked against him Bucks hasn't yet been able to fully harness the talent available to him. Losing too many good players from a club isn't good at thee of the day. His minimum expectation this year has to be to arrest the slide we are on and start to move back up. I for one expect us to play finals if we get a good injury run. |
This arguement has been done to death I know but I'll go 1 more time. Bucks inherited a list that could put a very good team on the park but a list that had some significant issues.
It was a list that had lost Presti, Medhurst, Anthony, O'Bree, Fraser, Rusling and Lockyer (among others) in 2010. It was a list that had lost Brown, McCarthy, Dick and Davis (among others) in 2011. That's arguably half a "best 22". It was a list that was carrying players like Jolly and Didak into 2012 and 2013 when they were never able to recapture their 2010 form or contribute meaningfully.
All of which lead to a very disfunctional list. Age and experience profile was very ordinary.
On top of that there were the injuries. And defections.
As to your suggestion that the 2010-11 team was the best since the '30s, the 1970 team says hi, as does the 1977 team, as does the 1990 team, and that's just the ones I've actually seen. |
Very well put, Bucks had to sweep the place clean, start a big rebuild with exhuberant youth, the 2011 team was done and dusted post GF. If Jolly and Dids still had it, how come not one team wanted either in the draft ?? Harry left due to overt sensitivity, and daisy and beams left for more coin, simple as that, both krak and davis were done. For the umpteenth time,i say bucks had to rebuild our list with youth, we had no other rational choice. 
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Gone Critical
Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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| jackcass wrote: | | Gone Critical wrote: | Will preface these remarks by saying I am a massive fan of Bucks. Been watching the Pies for a long time and he is the best player I have seen at the club by a margin. Also a great leader and seems a great man.
Nonetheless he will come under a bit of heat as a coach if we go down any further. He inherited a great list. The 2010-11 team is clearly the best list Collingwood has had since the 1930's IMHO. It was also relatively young so I certainly had an expectation we could contend for a while. Bucks coached well in 2012 and injuries and poor JMac really scuppered that season. 4 ACLs was cruel. 2013 and 2014 were also significantly injury riddled so he has excuses. However he has also presided over a time when we have lost a lot of A grade or near A grade players who still had plenty of years left. Beams, Daisy, Shaw, Heretier.
There is not much of that team left but there is some top line talent still there. Think Pendles, Cloke, Reid, Sidey, Brown as well as good foot soldiers in Sack, Toovs and Blair. Bucks needs to get the young blokes up and going while the A graders above are still near their best. That's a shrinking time line. Alternative is he has done a total rebuild and completely dismantled the great list he was handed.
So while some events have worked against him Bucks hasn't yet been able to fully harness the talent available to him. Losing too many good players from a club isn't good at thee of the day. His minimum expectation this year has to be to arrest the slide we are on and start to move back up. I for one expect us to play finals if we get a good injury run. |
This arguement has been done to death I know but I'll go 1 more time. Bucks inherited a list that could put a very good team on the park but a list that had some significant issues.
It was a list that had lost Presti, Medhurst, Anthony, O'Bree, Fraser, Rusling and Lockyer (among others) in 2010. It was a list that had lost Brown, McCarthy, Dick and Davis (among others) in 2011. That's arguably half a "best 22". It was a list that was carrying players like Jolly and Didak into 2012 and 2013 when they were never able to recapture their 2010 form or contribute meaningfully.
All of which lead to a very disfunctional list. Age and experience profile was very ordinary.
On top of that there were the injuries. And defections.
As to your suggestion that the 2010-11 team was the best since the '30s, the 1970 team says hi, as does the 1977 team, as does the 1990 team, and that's just the ones I've actually seen. |
I really can't agree with anything much you have written here. There is no doubt in my mind Bucks inherited a great list. It was balanced, the best players were largely either in their prime or just entering it. The goal to goal line was an envy of everyone and the only potential weakness was in the ruck as Jolly was beginning to age and his potential replacements were struggling. This remember was the 2012 list.
In 2012 Bucks was cursed by bad luck but I still believe he did an extraordinary job year 1. In fact he has had terrible luck with his list in 12, 13 and 14 but for mine the injuries and luck was at its worst in 2012. I would really like him to get a fair run in 2015 so we can see more clearly how he stacks up as a coach. However the problems he encountered had nothing to do with the list changes you mention. I will go through why I disagree.
You mention the loss of Presti, Tarks, Rusling et al in 2010 as being important. They were all retired or let go by MM because they had been overtaken by younger players, Rusling had played 1 game and had 4 possessions for the whole of 2008 as his last contribution to our AFL team. you are gilding the lily trying to present him as a reason why Bucks had a dysfunctional list in 2012. In 2011 you mention the loss of Anthony, played 8 games in 2 yrs for Freo for 3 goals. In fact he only kicked 8 AFL goals after 2009, clearly no loss to Bucks. Dick , 5 games 2010-11 and 6 goals , sad story with injury but didn't contribute to the great list of 2010-11. J Mac even sadder story but was a depth player who Bucks decided not to keep. How can you present these guys as a reason why Bucks suffered as a coach. Nothing to do with it IMHO.
I will give you my take on 2012. Bucks and Collingwood were cursed but did a great job when you consider what they were up against. I disagree Jolly was an impediment to 2012, he had a good season. Averaged 32+ HO/game a career high. Only other season he got anywhere near those numbers was 2009. Played 20 games.
Truth is 2012 started as a wide open season and Sydney who won it was never considered likely until the 2nd half of the year. Bucks was cursed as a coach through pre season with lots of the senior players injured, breaking down and on modified programs. Butters was still in charge of the phys ed. Didak, Johnson, Daisy, Nathan Brown all were limited in the pre season. We entered round one with 3 debutantsand 3 guys who had played only a couple of games plus the returning Marty Clarke. Paine, Seedsman, Sinclair(4), Rounds(5), Yagmoor, Keefe(5) had a total of 14 games AFL experience, Clarke hadn't played for 2 seasons plus Fas who was game 14 into his career. Bucks was debuting as coach. Pretty extraordinary situation when you look at a team coming off a flag and r/u.
Injuries were a killer in 2012. Nate Brown returning from an ACL not fit at start of the season. 4 other ACLs Krak, Caff, Ball and Keefe. Didak with his adductor injury all through the year meant he played 5 games up to round 20 then played the next 6 games. Johnno started with a Hamstring stopping the start of the season then a shoulder reco in May so he only got back for the last few rounds. Thomas had preseason worries and missed games in the season and was hampered when he played. Reid missed 5 games with soft tissue stuff and was hampered in other games. Shaw went down with a Hammy for a while. There may be others but they are the ones I remember. To add to that Bucks had to contend with MM and Eddie conducting a war in the media and the journos did their best to drag him into it. How good was he handling that when the other 2 were making Dicks of themselves. I forgive Eddie but he didnt make it easy for Bucks.
By the time Carlton thumped us in R3 Bucks could have been forgiven for having a whinge . He didn't, head down, stuck the list that was fairly decimated together and won 10 on end. Come 13 games into the season we were on top and the bookies had us equal flag favs with the Hawks. We tired though , no surprise with the injuries and distractions. Still Bucks got us up for another great win against Sydney at ANZ late in the season. Top 4 finish but we were limping. Then the worst event of the season occurred when poor Johnny Mac passed just before our PF. Boys went to the funeral then straight to Sydney. Far from ideal.
So for mine Bucks did fantastically in 2012 and had a great list but no luck at all. With some he may have got a flag in his 1st year. List has slipped since then I agree. Some coaches have bad luck and Bucks has had his but time doesn't wait and unfortunately, partly through no fault of his own, Bucks is in a position where he needs a good season or he may lose his job.
As to you asking re the 70, 77, and 79 team. I saw them all, went to all those GFs. Have no doubt 2010-11 is the best. It was the 1st time in my watching Collingwood we had a really good shot a a multiple flag winning team and a bit of a dynasty. I regret that greatly because that is the one thing I am desperate to see in my lifetime. A Collingwood team that can be talked about with the great teams of recent era. 2010-11 could be as close as I get to seeing that. |
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droversdog65
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Great post GC, really well reasoned and presented.
Just to dip my oar in - on top of all the player problems we have had a huge upheaval off field with line coaches, support staff and medicos defecting or being seduced.
In short we have been decimated - both in player personel and every line of coaching and support staff you can think of.
The now obvious sedition within the player ranks could not have helped and we are unlikely to ever hear the real story about just what sort of poison was spread throughout the playing group by sulking Mick favourites who couldn't get their own way any more.
To have made the finals every year except last - and we really only fell away at the end - is nothing short of a miracle and I find those that comment causticly and sarcasticly at coaching and playing personel utterly offensive. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| To Every one? Thanks for telling me your opinion. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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We all want our coaches, trainers and players to succeed. But sometimes, as bucks did with Witts on the boundary, coaches need to hear some home truths so they themselves improve.
Anyone that reflects on 2014 and doesn't see it anything than as shambolic and amateurish (from a coaching/training perspective) is delusional. It was a wasted season due to soft tissue injuries (caused by poor training methodology and handpass happy game plan). The players played their guts out. I can't fault their effort. I cant say the same for those in charge.
Thankfully, its a new season and hopefully the coaching and trainingstaff have learned and improved. If so, we are in for a great year. |
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Didaksgoal 
Joined: 12 Mar 2004
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If we fix two things: our kick-outs / rebound from the back-line, and our forward set-up / strategy............ we'll compete in finals this year. Of those two scenarios, the forward strategy is our biggest downfall (imho).
Last year, the forward strategy stank like sh!t. The rebound from the opposition after we entered our 50 was excruciating!!! Where were the crumbers? How about a second/third option? NUP, kick it long to Cloke with 2 gorilla's hanging off him......FMD!
In saying all that, we should improve. I reckon we hit rock-bottom last year........I hope so.
The positive I see from here:
Our first and second year draft picks - we are blessed.........but will take 2-3 years......and if we're lucky, by the third year, playing off in a Grand Final.
All of this is my opinion, but who knows what may happen?
GO THE PIES! |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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I said it a few times last seasons nd I stick by it Bucks gets 2015 to prove his worth as head coach and deserves the full support of every fan.
By round 12/14 we will know if we are finals chances and depending on our injury run this should be the catalyst for any decision to look into changing coaches.
If we have a injury free run ( and I pray we do) and we are around 10/4 or 9/5 then with the young developing list bucks gets 2 more years.
If we get another run of key injuries and are 7/7 or 6/8 but have been competitive then he gets 2 more years.
If we get no injuries and are 6/8 or 5/9 then he is a dead man walking.
I said a few times last year being a great player doesn't make a great coach also bucks strength as a player being single minded might be his biggest weakness as a coach.
I'm hoping we have a successful year and he proves he can coach. |
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Mossi 
Joined: 20 May 2002
Location: Vittorio Veneto TV Italy
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | I said it a few times last seasons nd I stick by it Bucks gets 2015 to prove his worth as head coach and deserves the full support of every fan.
By round 12/14 we will know if we are finals chances and depending on our injury run this should be the catalyst for any decision to look into changing coaches.
If we have a injury free run ( and I pray we do) and we are around 10/4 or 9/5 then with the young developing list bucks gets 2 more years.
If we get another run of key injuries and are 7/7 or 6/8 but have been competitive then he gets 2 more years.
If we get no injuries and are 6/8 or 5/9 then he is a dead man walking.
I said a few times last year being a great player doesn't make a great coach also bucks strength as a player being single minded might be his biggest weakness as a coach.
I'm hoping we have a successful year and he proves he can coach. |
I'm also hoping we see Bucks win games with good coaching but I disagree about a great player not making a great coach ..... Remember Mathews! Was the toughest roughest player that probably played the game and would be in the best team of all time, he also coached 4 premiership sides. Hated him as a player , because he played for the Hawks but admired him as well.
Exciting stuff watching our team come together, can't wait to see how they all play this year! especially Broomhead, Freeman, Witts, Oxley and all the young players. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| Mossi wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | I said it a few times last seasons nd I stick by it Bucks gets 2015 to prove his worth as head coach and deserves the full support of every fan.
By round 12/14 we will know if we are finals chances and depending on our injury run this should be the catalyst for any decision to look into changing coaches.
If we have a injury free run ( and I pray we do) and we are around 10/4 or 9/5 then with the young developing list bucks gets 2 more years.
If we get another run of key injuries and are 7/7 or 6/8 but have been competitive then he gets 2 more years.
If we get no injuries and are 6/8 or 5/9 then he is a dead man walking.
I said a few times last year being a great player doesn't make a great coach also bucks strength as a player being single minded might be his biggest weakness as a coach.
I'm hoping we have a successful year and he proves he can coach. |
I'm also hoping we see Bucks win games with good coaching but I disagree about a great player not making a great coach ..... Remember Mathews! Was the toughest roughest player that probably played the game and would be in the best team of all time, he also coached 4 premiership sides. Hated him as a player , because he played for the Hawks but admired him as well.
Exciting stuff watching our team come together, can't wait to see how they all play this year! especially Broomhead, Freeman, Witts, Oxley and all the young players. |
Mossi fair point I should have said a great player doesn't always make a great coach. Matthews IMO a great player but his coaching record I believe has been enhanced by AFL house in respect to the premierships at Brisbane. Yes he kept all those egos in check with the exception of aker at the end but how can anyone honestly believe they could keep all them players under the salary cap without the AFL allowing them to bend every rule and offer them unprecedented assistance (at that time) simple fact is the AFL wanted the lions to have a prolonged success at that time. Sydney have there chance now before GWS and the Suns lists fully develop and the rest of the comp is playing for 3rd place for a couple years.
IMO his premiership at the pies counts the other 3 were gifts from the overlords at AFL house. |
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Mossi
Joined: 20 May 2002
Location: Vittorio Veneto TV Italy
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| ^ qldmagpie67, the 3 were gifts from AFL house, agree but 2002 should have been ours in any case!! We were robbed by the umpires but that's another topic. We have to give Bucks time,its a young squad and the next few years the shaping of the team will tells a lot about mister Buckley. After the 2008 premiership it took Clarkson (with the quality list he had) three years to get back into contention! |
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SuperSwede
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Location: Stockholm
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| Defender wrote: | | no need to go over it all again, let's just wait and see what this season brings shall we? |
Easily the most intelligent post in this thread.
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Hating Carlton makes my Life worthwhile |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | I said it a few times last seasons nd I stick by it Bucks gets 2015 to prove his worth as head coach and deserves the full support of every fan.
By round 12/14 we will know if we are finals chances and depending on our injury run this should be the catalyst for any decision to look into changing coaches.
If we have a injury free run ( and I pray we do) and we are around 10/4 or 9/5 then with the young developing list bucks gets 2 more years.
If we get another run of key injuries and are 7/7 or 6/8 but have been competitive then he gets 2 more years.
If we get no injuries and are 6/8 or 5/9 then he is a dead man walking.
I said a few times last year being a great player doesn't make a great coach also bucks strength as a player being single minded might be his biggest weakness as a coach.
I'm hoping we have a successful year and he proves he can coach. |
Irrespective of our comments here, the club will comply with the wishes of its members regarding Buckley. If the members want Bucks out at the end of the season or whatever, so be it..  That's the power they have as the club administration merely represents the members.
I hope Collingwood members know what the right thing to do is by the club. They hold the reigns..
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Mossi wrote: | | I disagree about a great player not making a great coach ..... Remember Mathews! Was the toughest roughest player that probably played the game and would be in the best team of all time, he also coached 4 premiership sides. Hated him as a player , because he played for the Hawks but admired him as well. |
Also Jezza from the scum in 1979.....
_________________
Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Post subject: Re: Support Bucks | |
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| Hiss wrote: | | For those of you on here calling for the demise of Buckley I ask you to reconsider. If you have ever met him, you would know he is one of the greatest motivators and football brains our game has ever produced. I loved him as a player, a Captain, and he has my full support as our coach. We are going through a phase of experimentation as a Club at the moment which will take at least three years to work itself out. Give it time. I will be going to the footy this year to enjoy this journey. Bucks is a pleasure to observe coaching and gives his heart and soul to every move made on the field. I predicated us to be 15th this year in another post, when I mean't 5th. I believe we will fire in the second half of the season and the ride will be interesting. So if you want Buckley out, who do you suggest should replace him? Ray Shaw? Lets get on board and back our Coach. He doesn't need to watch his back this year. He needs to be focussed forward. I call on the Board to issue a written letter of support for our Coach as well. |
Well Joffa, I mean Hiss I think this is Bucks make or break year and if things go bad which I am not wishing of course no Social media campaign will stop the calls for his head.
Love your use of social media btw. |
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