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datwhitey
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Location: Hong Kong
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| CarringbushCigar wrote: | Lets address this issue of defections.
I believe this is at the heart of the matter.
It is why many of us believe there is something toxic at our football club.
I guess u are referring to:
Wellingham
Daisy
Beamsy
Hertier
Walsh
Buttifant
A case can be made that the number 1 reason that each left is the mismanagment and attitude of the senior coach. With secondary cause being the new pro-Buckley mantra from Ed and Pert, which cuts off all avenues of expressing concern.
Coincidence? I dont much believe in coincidence.
The treatment of Shaw,Davis,Jolly,Dids and even Ball was unprofessional at best.
The subsequent mature age recruitment has been laughable.
Thank the lord we have the best recruitment department of young talent in the country.
Bucks has free reign, carte blanche, yet is clearly not accountable to Pert and Ed in a normal healthy way. Because their tenure is threatened by his failings.
Therefore some of us passionate Collingwood supporters feel obliged to express our views.
To be shouted down and wished dead is disturbing and very threatening.
Lazza Rudeboy and Jackass' treatment of 35Forever was disgusting petty and childlike. For grown men your behaviour was verging on criminal.
You continue to gang up on any alternative view like wolves on a lamb.
We are concerned about our club. We not asking u to join us but we beg not to be abused, and maybe keep an open mind.
P.S . the 20k is open to all |
Let's look at each case in isolation...
WELLINGHAM was offered a contract, did not accept it & advised the club he wanted to go back to W.A. We traded him to WCE, received IMO a fair return. This is part & parcel of the salary cap, AFL draft based system - nothing to see here.
DAISY was a restricted free agent who, while at his best was (and may yet again be) a wonderful player. His last couple of years at the 'Pies were not great, predominantly due to injury, and IMO it was prudent list management to NOT match the scum's offer & pay him 750k a year and get on with life. Again, given the system in place, we can't complain about our "dividend" from this.
BEAMSY - yep, upset to see him go, but he wasn't forced out of the club. In fact it was he & the Brions that forced our hand. On the surface, it doesn't seem like we received what he was worth, but let's give it a couple of years to see how De Goey does, and if Greenwood & Crisp offer us anything of note. Don't know how you can blame the club (or Buckley) for this....but of course you do.
HERETIER - really? He'd annoyed enough of the other players to now be considered more of a (negative) distraction than an asset. Move along H (and thanks for your service)
WALSH - not being on the inside, I'll accede to those that are sure there was a falling out within the inner sanctum. Shame, as I thought he was great for us, but it happens in any organisation, and we are no more immune to it than others.
BUTTIFANT - there are plenty who believe that the quality of "service" he was providing was sub-standard, so I don't think anyone can really state categorically that there has been any major coq'up there
Unprofessional the way we handles SHAW? You must be kidding! It was HIS lack of professionalism that cost him his spot. I loved the guy, and still do, but he absolutely had to go after his recent carrying on (and over a long period). JOLLY was gone - his last season or so showed that, and why should the club offer him a contract for what HE thinks he is worth, for as long as HE wants? Part of list management is letting blokes know that they are no longer guaranteed a game, and in other cases, being told they are not even going to be kept on the list. Jolly was a prime example of a bloke who had been good, but was no longer up to it, so he absolutely had to go. DIDAK - there is an argument to say that he may have been able to eke out another year, but there is also just as strong an argument to say that his time was up & younger blokes needed to be given a chance. BALL - I'd hoped that he'd give it another year, but if what he says (re ongoing back injury) is true, and I'd imagine he'd been told that less than 100% fit he wasn't going to get a game, why wouldn't you say "OK, I'll call it a day?" again, part of list management, and I have no problem with it.
The only one I haven't yet mentioned is DAVIS, as there may well have been a case of him not accepting what we offered (and we DID offer a contract) if he was to play under Buckley, while he MAY have stayed on if MM was there. But the suggestion that this was the case came out longer after he'd gone, so how to know whether it's true or not?
Of course you'll probably disagree with me, or consider me to be naive, wearing rose-tinted glasses (I actually wear clear glasses, and manage to see both the sun & the rain), but you obviously are dead against Buckley. I just can't agree with most of what you say (and I am sure there are plenty of others that disagree as strongly) |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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Maybe you all just draw witches hats at twenty paces.
I have already put it out there that i am a buckley supporter but i am an even bigger supporter of freedom of speech.
We all want success and we need to respect that people will have different views on how that success is best achieved.
Simple really. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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no need to go over it all again, let's just wait and see what this season brings shall we?
_________________
Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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CarringbushCigar 
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie
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| datwhitey wrote: | | CarringbushCigar wrote: | Lets address this issue of defections.
I believe this is at the heart of the matter.
It is why many of us believe there is something toxic at our football club.
I guess u are referring to:
Wellingham
Daisy
Beamsy
Hertier
Walsh
Buttifant
A case can be made that the number 1 reason that each left is the mismanagment and attitude of the senior coach. With secondary cause being the new pro-Buckley mantra from Ed and Pert, which cuts off all avenues of expressing concern.
Coincidence? I dont much believe in coincidence.
The treatment of Shaw,Davis,Jolly,Dids and even Ball was unprofessional at best.
The subsequent mature age recruitment has been laughable.
Thank the lord we have the best recruitment department of young talent in the country.
Bucks has free reign, carte blanche, yet is clearly not accountable to Pert and Ed in a normal healthy way. Because their tenure is threatened by his failings.
Therefore some of us passionate Collingwood supporters feel obliged to express our views.
To be shouted down and wished dead is disturbing and very threatening.
Lazza Rudeboy and Jackass' treatment of 35Forever was disgusting petty and childlike. For grown men your behaviour was verging on criminal.
You continue to gang up on any alternative view like wolves on a lamb.
We are concerned about our club. We not asking u to join us but we beg not to be abused, and maybe keep an open mind.
P.S . the 20k is open to all |
Let's look at each case in isolation...
WELLINGHAM was offered a contract, did not accept it & advised the club he wanted to go back to W.A. We traded him to WCE, received IMO a fair return. This is part & parcel of the salary cap, AFL draft based system - nothing to see here.
DAISY was a restricted free agent who, while at his best was (and may yet again be) a wonderful player. His last couple of years at the 'Pies were not great, predominantly due to injury, and IMO it was prudent list management to NOT match the scum's offer & pay him 750k a year and get on with life. Again, given the system in place, we can't complain about our "dividend" from this.
BEAMSY - yep, upset to see him go, but he wasn't forced out of the club. In fact it was he & the Brions that forced our hand. On the surface, it doesn't seem like we received what he was worth, but let's give it a couple of years to see how De Goey does, and if Greenwood & Crisp offer us anything of note. Don't know how you can blame the club (or Buckley) for this....but of course you do.
HERETIER - really? He'd annoyed enough of the other players to now be considered more of a (negative) distraction than an asset. Move along H (and thanks for your service)
WALSH - not being on the inside, I'll accede to those that are sure there was a falling out within the inner sanctum. Shame, as I thought he was great for us, but it happens in any organisation, and we are no more immune to it than others.
BUTTIFANT - there are plenty who believe that the quality of "service" he was providing was sub-standard, so I don't think anyone can really state categorically that there has been any major coq'up there
Unprofessional the way we handles SHAW? You must be kidding! It was HIS lack of professionalism that cost him his spot. I loved the guy, and still do, but he absolutely had to go after his recent carrying on (and over a long period). JOLLY was gone - his last season or so showed that, and why should the club offer him a contract for what HE thinks he is worth, for as long as HE wants? Part of list management is letting blokes know that they are no longer guaranteed a game, and in other cases, being told they are not even going to be kept on the list. Jolly was a prime example of a bloke who had been good, but was no longer up to it, so he absolutely had to go. DIDAK - there is an argument to say that he may have been able to eke out another year, but there is also just as strong an argument to say that his time was up & younger blokes needed to be given a chance. BALL - I'd hoped that he'd give it another year, but if what he says (re ongoing back injury) is true, and I'd imagine he'd been told that less than 100% fit he wasn't going to get a game, why wouldn't you say "OK, I'll call it a day?" again, part of list management, and I have no problem with it.
The only one I haven't yet mentioned is DAVIS, as there may well have been a case of him not accepting what we offered (and we DID offer a contract) if he was to play under Buckley, while he MAY have stayed on if MM was there. But the suggestion that this was the case came out longer after he'd gone, so how to know whether it's true or not?
Of course you'll probably disagree with me, or consider me to be naive, wearing rose-tinted glasses (I actually wear clear glasses, and manage to see both the sun & the rain), but you obviously are dead against Buckley. I just can't agree with most of what you say (and I am sure there are plenty of others that disagree as strongly) |
What we received is irrelevant to the argument that the current list is not as driven as it should be.
The argument is that the quality of management has left the list with a lack of trust respect and loyalty to those responsible, primarily Buckley. And that this is primarily responsible for our horrid performances against Freo Dogs Suns and Bombers.
Davis was offered by Bucks 250k for 1 year coming off a modest All Australian contract. Said FU2.
Wellingham walked to Collingwood's shock. Shocked surely means mismanagment. Bucks suspended him during the season.
Daisy to me is the big one. Our number 1 reason for premiership success and most popular player was offered 450k for 3 years. Holy Poop we just offered Greenwood a better deal. Where is the loyalty and respect shown to a guy who gave everything onfield week in week out? Geez we miss him. Just his energy and presence and history warranted a half serious attempt to retain him. Malthouse and Buttifant thought so. Bucks didnt - why? 0 votes to Luke Hodge might give us a clue.
Lets go to Buttifant. Word is Bucks completely modified player's individual plans. U say word is his quality was no good. I ask how many Carlton players are currently on modified programs. Word is Daisy Juddy and Kruezer are looking super. You think Juddy would have gone on another year under Bucks and Davoren.
Long odds id suggest. Would have walked or been retired or both.
Heater our super premiership hero made some mistakes. Always has always will. Was he responsible for us losing the 2013 EF? Hell no. You know was? Elliot was a crock. Jolly said he was fit and ignored. Grundy alone got pantsed. Keefe went forwared and caused kaos. Cloke never left the square. It was a coaching disaster on par with our emergency playing 7 quarters in a day or not tagging Ablett for 4 quarters.
Bucks blamed Shaw. Change the culture and 'We've got the necessary talent to contend, but this year we beat ourselves. It won't happen again and we're putting everything in place to make sure it doesn't.'
Shaw got frustrated all year being promised mid forward time but ending up time and again in deep defence on small forwards covering love child Sinclair.
When was Heater ever given a serious crack on the wing or half forward?
He was difficult to manage. I guess thats what u get paid 900K for, to get the best out of A Grade premiership heroes. Maybe its easier to blame them for your own failings and roger them
Did Jolly have another year? Probably. We recruited Hudson. And told our premiership hero to piss off. Why? Jolly a super professional footballer with many medals had his own mind. See a pattern recurring?
Dids was maybe finished but obviously a threat. Very popular. Point is he wasnt warned. It came as a shock. He was upset a lot. This is mismanagment. Him and Jolly both came out super critical of Buckley. Who was running these retirements and exit interviews? The 900k work experience boy. This is managment 101 errors repeated with Ball. WTF?
Beams. What rock u been living under? Multiple well connected people are on the record as saying there is no doubt Beams fell out of love with the club because of the treatment of his mates. Shaw and Thomas in particular.
H hmm. Its a tough one. Apparently Walsh wanted him gone already and was overruled. Its complex for sure. But no matter how anyone coats it its another relationship failure with a premiership player.
Walsh we all seem in agreement. He had had enough of the circus and walked midseason with the spend time with family line. Surely this alone is enough for a rational Collingwood supporter to at least raise an eyebrow?
We could talk about Dawesy too being AHoled for Lynch.
But im exhausted.
I dont hate Buckley. But i do think he should be held partly accointable for some of it.
It feels like he has spent most of his time weeding and limited harvesting. Replacing vital equipment with unwanted 2nd hand rusty parts. Is he flexible enough to change the fertiliser or do we need to replace the farmer.
To ignore it is to ignore a lot of Collingwood and media people who have/are expressing criticism and asking questions. |
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datwhitey
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Location: Hong Kong
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| CarringbushCigar wrote: | | datwhitey wrote: | | CarringbushCigar wrote: | Lets address this issue of defections.
I believe this is at the heart of the matter.
It is why many of us believe there is something toxic at our football club.
I guess u are referring to:
Wellingham
Daisy
Beamsy
Hertier
Walsh
Buttifant
A case can be made that the number 1 reason that each left is the mismanagment and attitude of the senior coach. With secondary cause being the new pro-Buckley mantra from Ed and Pert, which cuts off all avenues of expressing concern.
Coincidence? I dont much believe in coincidence.
The treatment of Shaw,Davis,Jolly,Dids and even Ball was unprofessional at best.
The subsequent mature age recruitment has been laughable.
Thank the lord we have the best recruitment department of young talent in the country.
Bucks has free reign, carte blanche, yet is clearly not accountable to Pert and Ed in a normal healthy way. Because their tenure is threatened by his failings.
Therefore some of us passionate Collingwood supporters feel obliged to express our views.
To be shouted down and wished dead is disturbing and very threatening.
Lazza Rudeboy and Jackass' treatment of 35Forever was disgusting petty and childlike. For grown men your behaviour was verging on criminal.
You continue to gang up on any alternative view like wolves on a lamb.
We are concerned about our club. We not asking u to join us but we beg not to be abused, and maybe keep an open mind.
P.S . the 20k is open to all |
Let's look at each case in isolation...
WELLINGHAM was offered a contract, did not accept it & advised the club he wanted to go back to W.A. We traded him to WCE, received IMO a fair return. This is part & parcel of the salary cap, AFL draft based system - nothing to see here.
DAISY was a restricted free agent who, while at his best was (and may yet again be) a wonderful player. His last couple of years at the 'Pies were not great, predominantly due to injury, and IMO it was prudent list management to NOT match the scum's offer & pay him 750k a year and get on with life. Again, given the system in place, we can't complain about our "dividend" from this.
BEAMSY - yep, upset to see him go, but he wasn't forced out of the club. In fact it was he & the Brions that forced our hand. On the surface, it doesn't seem like we received what he was worth, but let's give it a couple of years to see how De Goey does, and if Greenwood & Crisp offer us anything of note. Don't know how you can blame the club (or Buckley) for this....but of course you do.
HERETIER - really? He'd annoyed enough of the other players to now be considered more of a (negative) distraction than an asset. Move along H (and thanks for your service)
WALSH - not being on the inside, I'll accede to those that are sure there was a falling out within the inner sanctum. Shame, as I thought he was great for us, but it happens in any organisation, and we are no more immune to it than others.
BUTTIFANT - there are plenty who believe that the quality of "service" he was providing was sub-standard, so I don't think anyone can really state categorically that there has been any major coq'up there
Unprofessional the way we handles SHAW? You must be kidding! It was HIS lack of professionalism that cost him his spot. I loved the guy, and still do, but he absolutely had to go after his recent carrying on (and over a long period). JOLLY was gone - his last season or so showed that, and why should the club offer him a contract for what HE thinks he is worth, for as long as HE wants? Part of list management is letting blokes know that they are no longer guaranteed a game, and in other cases, being told they are not even going to be kept on the list. Jolly was a prime example of a bloke who had been good, but was no longer up to it, so he absolutely had to go. DIDAK - there is an argument to say that he may have been able to eke out another year, but there is also just as strong an argument to say that his time was up & younger blokes needed to be given a chance. BALL - I'd hoped that he'd give it another year, but if what he says (re ongoing back injury) is true, and I'd imagine he'd been told that less than 100% fit he wasn't going to get a game, why wouldn't you say "OK, I'll call it a day?" again, part of list management, and I have no problem with it.
The only one I haven't yet mentioned is DAVIS, as there may well have been a case of him not accepting what we offered (and we DID offer a contract) if he was to play under Buckley, while he MAY have stayed on if MM was there. But the suggestion that this was the case came out longer after he'd gone, so how to know whether it's true or not?
Of course you'll probably disagree with me, or consider me to be naive, wearing rose-tinted glasses (I actually wear clear glasses, and manage to see both the sun & the rain), but you obviously are dead against Buckley. I just can't agree with most of what you say (and I am sure there are plenty of others that disagree as strongly) |
What we received is irrelevant to the argument that the current list is not as driven as it should be.
The argument is that the quality of management has left the list with a lack of trust respect and loyalty to those responsible, primarily Buckley. And that this is primarily responsible for our horrid performances against Freo Dogs Suns and Bombers.
Davis was offered by Bucks 250k for 1 year coming off a modest All Australian contract. Said FU2.
Wellingham walked to Collingwood's shock. Shocked surely means mismanagment. Bucks suspended him during the season.
Daisy to me is the big one. Our number 1 reason for premiership success and most popular player was offered 450k for 3 years. Holy Poop we just offered Greenwood a better deal. Where is the loyalty and respect shown to a guy who gave everything onfield week in week out? Geez we miss him. Just his energy and presence and history warranted a half serious attempt to retain him. Malthouse and Buttifant thought so. Bucks didnt - why? 0 votes to Luke Hodge might give us a clue.
Lets go to Buttifant. Word is Bucks completely modified player's individual plans. U say word is his quality was no good. I ask how many Carlton players are currently on modified programs. Word is Daisy Juddy and Kruezer are looking super. You think Juddy would have gone on another year under Bucks and Davoren.
Long odds id suggest. Would have walked or been retired or both.
Heater our super premiership hero made some mistakes. Always has always will. Was he responsible for us losing the 2013 EF? Hell no. You know was? Elliot was a crock. Jolly said he was fit and ignored. Grundy alone got pantsed. Keefe went forwared and caused kaos. Cloke never left the square. It was a coaching disaster on par with our emergency playing 7 quarters in a day or not tagging Ablett for 4 quarters.
Bucks blamed Shaw. Change the culture and 'We've got the necessary talent to contend, but this year we beat ourselves. It won't happen again and we're putting everything in place to make sure it doesn't.'
Shaw got frustrated all year being promised mid forward time but ending up time and again in deep defence on small forwards covering love child Sinclair.
When was Heater ever given a serious crack on the wing or half forward?
He was difficult to manage. I guess thats what u get paid 900K for, to get the best out of A Grade premiership heroes. Maybe its easier to blame them for your own failings and roger them
Did Jolly have another year? Probably. We recruited Hudson. And told our premiership hero to piss off. Why? Jolly a super professional footballer with many medals had his own mind. See a pattern recurring?
Dids was maybe finished but obviously a threat. Very popular. Point is he wasnt warned. It came as a shock. He was upset a lot. This is mismanagment. Him and Jolly both came out super critical of Buckley. Who was running these retirements and exit interviews? The 900k work experience boy. This is managment 101 errors repeated with Ball. WTF?
Beams. What rock u been living under? Multiple well connected people are on the record as saying there is no doubt Beams fell out of love with the club because of the treatment of his mates. Shaw and Thomas in particular.
H hmm. Its a tough one. Apparently Walsh wanted him gone already and was overruled. Its complex for sure. But no matter how anyone coats it its another relationship failure with a premiership player.
Walsh we all seem in agreement. He had had enough of the circus and walked midseason with the spend time with family line. Surely this alone is enough for a rational Collingwood supporter to at least raise an eyebrow?
We could talk about Dawesy too being AHoled for Lynch.
But im exhausted.
I dont hate Buckley. But i do think he should be held partly accointable for some of it.
To ignore it is to ignore a lot of Collingwood and media people who have/are expressing criticism and asking questions. |
CC, I don't disagree at all re the worrying signs in some of our losses; the perceived lack of effort was very disappointing. I just don't think that it's ALL down to Buckley's "mismanagement" and I don't agree with all your examples.
Davis was allegedly offered 250k (I have no idea, and while I'll grant you may have more of an idea about some things, I don't for a second take everything you say as gospel simply because you say it forcefully. I have no reason to believe that you are privy to what goes on in-house). He probably had a year left in him, and personally I would have liked him to stay. Whether he was worth whatever he wanted is not for me to decide, and obviously he wasn't prepared to accept what was offered. Perhaps Buckley wasn't prepared to pander to him the way MM did - I don't know, so this one for me has always been in the "shame, but let's move on basket."
Wellingham walked and we were shocked? shocked that he didn't accept the reasonable contract we offered him, perhaps. And perhaps shocked that he rated himself more highly than most others. Buckley suspended him....be fair to assume that this is because he contravened one of the rules that every player needed to adhere to? He was never considered to be the most disciplined, hard-working player...
Daisy - 450k (allegedly) is about what he was worth based on his previous couple of years efforts. Yes, he was injured, but his lack of professionalism during rehab (surfing, allegedly) showed a lack of professionalism, as did his petulant gesturing to Buckley in the coaches box. There was no way we could, nor should, have paid him 750k over x years based on both his injury problems & attitude. Happy for us not to match the scum's offer.
I don't know any more about Buttifant than you, or his relationship with Buckley, but it would be fair to assume it wasn't great as he's now gone. But do you know what, when a new coach, or manager (e.g. English Football) come in, there are often behind the scene changes as they want their own staff, have their own ideas, etc. I don't care if he's gone, and I don't see it as a major issue. I will agree, though, that I am not convinced (to this point) that Davoren was necessarily the ideal replacement.
No, Heater didn't lose that game against PA for us, but when he gave a 2nd goal to them within 5 seconds of the start of the quarter by being sucked in so stupidly, it pretty much ensured that we weren't going to bounce back. Momentum (or lack of) and all that. But YES, I do agree that Keeffe down forward was hopeless, and there was no plan B, C, D to try & drag us back in to the game. Buckley was NOT good that night, but it was the last straw for Heater and his antics. I wish that the game allowed ill-discipline larrikans to flourish, as many did years ago, but these days you have to adhere to team rules etc. at least to a certain point. Heater didn't, and it was probably in both the club's & his best interest that he left. Still sad, and still miss the bloke, but I agreed with the stance. Oh, and you ask "When was Heater ever given a serious crack on the wing or half forward?" Uhm, he was never given that chance by MM, over many years, so how is this Buckley's issue?
Jolly - IMO did NOT have another year in him. His last year was plagued by injury, and when he did play he could hardly get off the ground. Agree 100% with the decision to let him go.
Didak - as per my earlier post. At the time of leaving he was pretty upset, sure, but he has since been back & seems to have moved on in life (after having a think about things, perhaps). Shame Jolly didn't (doesn't?) have the grace to do so as well. This says more about Jolly than Buckley.
Beams - I'm well aware that he had issues with his mates leaving (and his perception of how they were treated) but it was his decision to handle the trade situation the way he did (IMO, poorly), and if the Pies (sorry, Buckley) has mistreated them so badly, why is Swanny, a GREAT mate of theirs, and considered over the years by many in AFL circles to be too much of a problem child, etc. still acting like a professional and getting on with it? I would have thought he'd be the first one to walk out on his given Buckley's horrendous treatment of these blokes? Or does he perhaps understand what it takes, not just to play AFL, but to fit in with the team ethos, which Beamsy did not?
Dawesy was not a-holed for anyone! Lynch was brought in to give us a 3rd option up forward & therefore release the pressure on him a bit, but as he was told (allegedly) he was not a walk-up start he cracked the sads and asked to leave. His prerogative, and good luck to him. I always liked him & was sad to see him go, but unfortunately it simply didn't work out (and I doubt he is ever going to reach great heights).
I too am exhausted, and I share some of your concerns about how things will pan out over the next year or two, I simply don't feel that it's a case of Buckley being the cause of all our recent woes, and I don't believe he has poor man management skills in the way you suggest (but I don't doubt that there are some players who won't respond to him as well as others; it's human nature). I'm happy(ish) to see how things unfold this season, and the next, and then if we are still nowhere near the upper echelon of teams, by all means let's look at other options... |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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Just on Davis (hopefully for the last time), he told the club he was retiring, the club held off on signing Macaffer and tried to persuade Leon to change his mind and when he didn't, they signed Macaffer. Only after they'd signed Macaffer did Leon change his mind at which time the club offered him as much as they had left in the salary cap which was about $250k. He can be as indignant as he wants but I'll bet my left nut it's more than he made playing elsewhere in 2012.
Leon (and some supporters) can bemoan him not playing on beyond 2011 but the situation was totally of his making, club was even prepared to let Macaffer go in order to retain him, not much more they could have or should have done.
Every off season we all went through the will he - won't he return period, finally hit the won't he point in 2011. Move on.
Agree with your other summation Datwhitey. |
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droversdog65
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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Well I have to say CC's revision of Daisy is appropriate.
Anyone who deliberately jeapordises their recovery from an injury for pleasure is a first rate a-hole and a vandal to the club and his team mates chances in the coming year.
I loved Daisy as a player and still rate his two GF's in '10 as some of the best footy I've seen from a non KPP . . . .
BUT
His infantile behaviour after the ankle injury and his pathetic daddies boy slinking to Mick when Bucks wouldn't pander to his antics as Mick did showed his true underlying nature. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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The club could've backended a contract or 2 to fit Leon in, I don't think Leon was ever serious about playing in 2012 though after he'd made his mind up, which was a shame because he still had at least one really good season in him as a defender.
_________________
Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Gone Critical
Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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| jackcass wrote: | Just on Davis (hopefully for the last time), he told the club he was retiring, the club held off on signing Macaffer and tried to persuade Leon to change his mind and when he didn't, they signed Macaffer. Only after they'd signed Macaffer did Leon change his mind at which time the club offered him as much as they had left in the salary cap which was about $250k. He can be as indignant as he wants but I'll bet my left nut it's more than he made playing elsewhere in 2012.
Leon (and some supporters) can bemoan him not playing on beyond 2011 but the situation was totally of his making, club was even prepared to let Macaffer go in order to retain him, not much more they could have or should have done.
Every off season we all went through the will he - won't he return period, finally hit the won't he point in 2011. Move on.
Agree with your other summation Datwhitey. |
This is close to what happened as I understand it but my version has a few differences.
Start off 2011 Leon was coming off an average 2010 and the disappointment of missing the winning GF. The club was lead to believe this would be his final season and so was not considered for a contract in 2012 and TPP was worked out on that basis
As 2011 progressed Leon's career was rejuvenated by the move to HB , he went onto be AA and at some point advised the club he wished to play on. Probably the club believed that would be a good idea but the TPPwas tight and adding Leon back in even on a 250kcontract was taking it to the edge
The 250k (?) was offered but Leon wanted more. If Leon took the offer up Caff, who was still uncontracted, was to be traded. If he didn't take it Caff got a contract. If the club was going to be able to offer more they would have to offload at least one other player. Think JMac was already out the door and late in the season there were not any other uncontracted players to offload.
At the end of the day Leon's late career good form posed a conundrum and if we kept him even on the limited contact he was offered we had to sack Caff. If we wanted to offer Leon more another player as well had to go and by late in the season there wasn't another obvious candidate.
This one was more an unfortunate set of circumstances. As to Leonq's remarks that he may have stayed if MM was still there take that with a grain of salt. As I recall that was a quote from an interview during 2012 and really was a lot more palatable than presenting the truth re Caff who by that time had done his ACL and was spurred from the sidelines by MM saying if he was still coach Leon would have been at the Pies. Easy to say without having to go into the ramifications to others on the list. See below article
.Mick Malthouse would've kept me: Leon Davis | The Australian
www.theaustralian.com.au/.../mick-malthouse-would...leon-davis/story-e6fr...
Apr 20, 2012 - Leon Davis opens up ... "I always wanted Mick to stay and coach on. ... Malthouse said on Sunday if he was still coach Davis would be at ...Mick Malthouse would've kept me: Leon Davis
AAP APRIL 20, 2012 8:10AM
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COLLINGWOOD'S 2011 All-Australian defender Leon Davis says he is "pretty confident" he would still be at the club if Mick Malthouse had remained as coach.
Malthouse, who guided the Magpies to a premiership in 2010 and a grand final appearance last year, had agreed to step down and hand over to his assistant Nathan Buckley for the 2012 season.
Davis was offered a reduced contract, reportedly about $200,000 compared with more than $300,000 for 2011, and quit the club.
Collingwood said the 30-year-old heading home to Perth for family reasons.
"For some others it would have been okay to take that reduction, but for me I wasn't comfortable doing that,'' Davis told The Footy Show.
"I made the decision to come home and I wasn't happy to come home and I wasn't happy to stay there with the contract on the table.''
Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
VIDEOLeon Davis opens up
End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
Davis said he was confident the ongoing presence of Malthouse as coach would have been enough to convince him to stay on for a 13th season at Collingwood.
Fifth in last year's Copeland Trophy, Davis was in good form and had unfinished business at the club after playing in losing grand finals in 2002 and 2003 and the drawn grand final of 2010, suffering the pain of being dropped for the replay which the Magpies won against St Kilda.
He played in another losing grand final side last year against Geelong.
"Mick has always made me feel welcome. I'm not taking nothing away from 'Bucks' and the rest of the footy club,'' Davis said.
"Me and Mick sort of had that special bond where he took me in as an 18-year-old when I first got over there and really did make sure that I felt comfortable and welcome down at the club back then.
"I'm pretty confident that if Mick was still around at the Collingwood Football Club, there's a pretty good chance I'd still be there.
"I always wanted Mick to stay and coach on. I had a great relationship with Mick and, of course, being one of the all-time greatest coaches, I wanted to see him stay on at Collingwood.''
Davis said he could not recall if he had told the Magpies after the 2011 grand final that his wish to leave was based purely on wanting to go back to Perth for family reasons - as claimed by club president Eddie McGuire.
Malthouse said on Sunday if he was still coach Davis would be at Collingwood too. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| CarringbushCigar wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | CarringbushCigar wrote: | What we received is irrelevant to the argument that the current list is not as driven as it should be.
The argument is that the quality of management has left the list with a lack of trust respect and loyalty to those responsible, primarily Buckley. And that this is primarily responsible for our horrid performances against Freo Dogs Suns and Bombers.
Davis was offered by Bucks 250k for 1 year coming off a modest All Australian contract. Said FU2.
Wellingham walked to Collingwood's shock. Shocked surely means mismanagment. Bucks suspended him during the season.
Daisy to me is the big one. Our number 1 reason for premiership success and most popular player was offered 450k for 3 years. Holy Poop we just offered Greenwood a better deal. Where is the loyalty and respect shown to a guy who gave everything onfield week in week out? Geez we miss him. Just his energy and presence and history warranted a half serious attempt to retain him. Malthouse and Buttifant thought so. Bucks didnt - why? 0 votes to Luke Hodge might give us a clue.
Lets go to Buttifant. Word is Bucks completely modified player's individual plans. U say word is his quality was no good. I ask how many Carlton players are currently on modified programs. Word is Daisy Juddy and Kruezer are looking super. You think Juddy would have gone on another year under Bucks and Davoren.
Long odds id suggest. Would have walked or been retired or both.
Heater our super premiership hero made some mistakes. Always has always will. Was he responsible for us losing the 2013 EF? Hell no. You know was? Elliot was a crock. Jolly said he was fit and ignored. Grundy alone got pantsed. Keefe went forwared and caused kaos. Cloke never left the square. It was a coaching disaster on par with our emergency playing 7 quarters in a day or not tagging Ablett for 4 quarters.
Bucks blamed Shaw. Change the culture and 'We've got the necessary talent to contend, but this year we beat ourselves. It won't happen again and we're putting everything in place to make sure it doesn't.'
Shaw got frustrated all year being promised mid forward time but ending up time and again in deep defence on small forwards covering love child Sinclair.
When was Heater ever given a serious crack on the wing or half forward?
He was difficult to manage. I guess thats what u get paid 900K for, to get the best out of A Grade premiership heroes. Maybe its easier to blame them for your own failings and roger them
Did Jolly have another year? Probably. We recruited Hudson. And told our premiership hero to piss off. Why? Jolly a super professional footballer with many medals had his own mind. See a pattern recurring?
Dids was maybe finished but obviously a threat. Very popular. Point is he wasnt warned. It came as a shock. He was upset a lot. This is mismanagment. Him and Jolly both came out super critical of Buckley. Who was running these retirements and exit interviews? The 900k work experience boy. This is managment 101 errors repeated with Ball. WTF?
Beams. What rock u been living under? Multiple well connected people are on the record as saying there is no doubt Beams fell out of love with the club because of the treatment of his mates. Shaw and Thomas in particular.
H hmm. Its a tough one. Apparently Walsh wanted him gone already and was overruled. Its complex for sure. But no matter how anyone coats it its another relationship failure with a premiership player.
Walsh we all seem in agreement. He had had enough of the circus and walked midseason with the spend time with family line. Surely this alone is enough for a rational Collingwood supporter to at least raise an eyebrow?
We could talk about Dawesy too being AHoled for Lynch.
But im exhausted.
I dont hate Buckley. But i do think he should be held partly accointable for some of it.
It feels like he has spent most of his time weeding and limited harvesting. Replacing vital equipment with unwanted 2nd hand rusty parts. Is he flexible enough to change the fertiliser or do we need to replace the farmer.
To ignore it is to ignore a lot of Collingwood and media people who have/are expressing criticism and asking questions. |
My God you're quite delusional really, time for your medication.... |
Here comes the wolf with his verbal abuse.
An All Australian changed his mind and we had 250k left. Sounds like brilliant player management. U dont think we could have creatively found an extra 50k by juggling something?
Same as Thomas and Shaw and H if there was a will there was a way. Pattern recurring. U cant call these guys defecters/defectors. None of them wanted to leave us. They were unwanted and/or seriously under nurtured.
Just on Swanny, do u really think he is invested. U really think his Anzac perfornance was a random event. He just felt great on the day?
He had to go behind the club's back to defend himself from internally leaked drug allegations.
Brilliant.
Just another day at the Glasshouse. |
You make very good points.
Seriously, Eddie calls for the AIS and medical experts from across the world to investigate the pies injuries before the 2014 season had even finished and people don't think there was a problem with Bucks training program or the high performance manager? When exactly did Eddie bring in the AIS and others to investigate what Buttifant was doing? He never had to.
It's beyond absurd to deny the correlation between bucks taking over since 2012 and the increase in injuries. Blaming Buttifant is nonesense. Bucks demanded a higher workload on players to match his own work ethic as a player. Buttifant modified his training regime due to his boss, Bucks, telling him to do so. Surprise, surprise not many can meet bucks' high workload without incurring injury.
I hope Bucks has learned off the past 3 years, and implements changes to his man management and game plan. He's needs to if the pies are to get back into the 8. Just as our young players need to adapt and improve their football.
The 2014 season needs to be taken in context of both Bucks and Pert basically guaranteeing a top 4 performance in the pre season and saying we were a shot at a flag in the next 3 years. It was Bucks and Pert that put high expectations on the teams performance from 2014 to 2016 (3 seasons). When the CEO and coach do that, then as a member you are entitled to be pissed when doesn't happen.
Even Derek Hine looks like he has called Bucks, the coaching staff and trainers out in this article - (http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-10-20/plans-to-replenish-the-midfield)
“It’s exciting, but again, I think we feel that the playing group is ready to go and the profile of the list is ready to go.
“Now it’s really important that Nathan Buckley and the rest of the coaches can work with them to maximise all players potential, whether it be Dane Swan at 31 years or Darcy Moore, who’s 18 years, and that will be our goal going forward."
Oh lord, is Hine a Tory? How dare he say "I've put together a great list. Its ready to deliver. Hey Bucks, it's over to you. No more 2014 seasons thanks mate".
Geez I really really hope Eddie pulled Hine aside, gave him a lecture on Karl Marx and the importance of the working class ethos. Then made Hine promise to agree to the underdog and underachieving mantra and gave him a directive to not put any pressure on Bucks to deliver some success... Haha
What Hine said is exactly what a number of posters on here are saying. We have the talent to be a force this year (not in 3 years time). We have been rebuilding since 2012 (encase you missed the trades and top 10 draft picks we've had). Had we not had the poor man management of 2014 we would have made the finals easily. Its time to deliver.
I think Hine can evaluate the list better than anyone on here, and in the AFL industry. If he says the list is good to go, then those in charge need to be held to account if we don't at least make the 8 in 2015. Even Travis Varcoe has said the skies the limit.
I expect us to make the 8 and push for top 6. I think Bucks is more than capable of achieving this goal with the talent we have. If we have another so so year then I'll have no other option than to question why the board and ceo don't at least have a look around to see what other coaching options are available.
Last edited by Krakouer Magic on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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Let's call a spade a spade, if Bucks wasn't an alltime great Collingwood player we wouldn't even be having this discussion, some of us can see through the romance and simply want what's best for the club.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
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CarringbushCigar
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie
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Hehe KM great post.
Maybe Hine is a Buckley hater with a mental health problem and not a 'real' Collingwood supporter. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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Bucks is as impressive as they come when it comes to talking, he's one impressive man, but if we go by recent history that's a negative.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Defender wrote: | | Bucks is as impressive as they come when it comes to talking, he's one impressive man, but if we go by recent history that's a negative. |
So Buckley being an impressive man is now a bloody negative?
FMD.....  
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Hiss wrote: | | And I am holding the fort too! Afterall this is my post. Any member who places a bet on our coach failing in my view should have their membership terminated. |
yep, and the bloody real JOCK RILEY CHOMPING ON THAT STOGIE, WOULD BE BLOODY ASHAMED OF HIM TOO, EVEN IF HE DID TRY TO UNDERMIND LAURIE. 
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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