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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Bruce Gonsalves wrote: | | No contest. But geeze the media love to emphasize certain events. Might be time to bomb the Isis pricks out of existence. |
I understand your cynicism completely, but I think this is going to make people think less about ISIS - who, after all, didn't actually cause the bulk of this humanitarian crisis - and more about the wider plight of the world's refugees.
That's not to say it'll have any positive effect, of course. Refugee advocates will use it for the moral high ground, the stop the boats crowd will use it for their own moral high ground and even the refugee haters will probably get a kick out of blaming the parents for being irresponsible. Same old story, really.
If nothing else, though, a bit of a general shot of empathy won't hurt.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ I'm not sure about that, David. Policy based primarily on empathy can do a great deal of damage. Policy needs to be based on an analysis of its consequences. That is very different from simple empathy.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I think you'll need to defend that assertion further – specifically, on the grounds of a) how empathy in politics can cause damage; and b) in what ways empathy and consequentialism are mutually exclusive.
I don't actually think our political leaders can ever have too much empathy. You can have a high level of empathy and too little access to data or rational thought; but if so, I would have thought the problem then would be the lack of those qualities, not some surplus of empathy.
(I should also point out that empathy is a very different thing to mere emotional gut reaction. I would certainly agree that we have more than enough of the latter in politics.)
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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It’s really just a re-run of past discussions, David. See Hiroshima, asylum seekers etc.
What empathy would drive you to do for an individual case would have terrible consequences if generalised – in this case supplying the product purveyed by the people who run the leaky boats business. Politics is about making choices that may hurt individuals now but, over time, benefit the whole. Trouble is, you can't empathise across time, or with a whole.
Empathy might tell you where to look - but it will probably mislead you about what to do.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | What empathy would drive you to do for an individual case would have terrible consequences if generalised – in this case supplying the product purveyed by the people who run the leaky boats business. |
Sorry, can't agree with that. You can argue whatever you like about how asylum seekers should be treated or what the ideal utilitarian goal is, but if you're failing to identify with their plight then you've got a fairly crucial information gap. The issue becomes abstract, and you start losing sight of the human consequences.
I'm sure that good policies have on occasion emerged from rarefied thought, but I'm even more certain that it's led to a great deal of terrible, over-generalised, out of touch policies.
Let's be clear on this: you can fully empathise and still back a "stop the boats" policy on utilitarian grounds. I don't see any paradox there at all. Refusing to think empathetically, however, is just pigheaded. If it's the only way a politician can sleep at night, then they're probably doing something wrong.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | What empathy would drive you to do for an individual case would have terrible consequences if generalised – in this case supplying the product purveyed by the people who run the leaky boats business. |
Sorry, can't agree with that. You can argue whatever you like about how asylum seekers should be treated or what the ideal utilitarian goal is, but if you're failing to identify with their plight then you've got a fairly crucial information gap. The issue becomes abstract, and you start losing sight of the human consequences.
I'm sure that good policies have on occasion emerged from rarefied thought, but I'm even more certain that it's led to a great deal of terrible, over-generalised, out of touch policies.
Let's be clear on this: you can fully empathise and still back a "stop the boats" policy on utilitarian grounds. I don't see any paradox there at all. Refusing to think empathetically, however, is just pigheaded. If it's the only way a politician can sleep at night, then they're probably doing something wrong. |
My original comment was that policy based primarily on empathy may do great damage. I would never say that empathy should be excluded from thought, and of course empathy is an important part of the decision-making process. But that does not mean it should be the principal determinant in framing policy. I'll say it again - it tells you where to look, not necessarily what to do. Knowing where to look is important as well, of course.
In the present case, the reaction in the Uk to that terrible photograph seems to be "oh, we must let more of these poor people in". But really it should tell us we must do more to help these people. There are many ways to do that, and the best one may not be the instinctive one commanded by empathy.
I know you're not questioning this, but in case it is lost in translation, this crusty old conservative probably felt as much empathy as you did, for that photo, and the sickening imagination of what led up to it. But once that is experienced, you have to engage other faculties as well.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Found out a friend passed away yesterday. Was at a friends, felt a bit crook, died in the ambulance, about my age, early 50's. Heart attack, at least it was quick. He leave behind a legally blind wife, and his son is legally blind too. So sad. A really great bloke, as honest and genuine as you will find, a real blue collar true blue Aussie, had a glass business, I'll miss his humour. He was a Collingwood man too....
RIP Kevin, I'm really going to miss you xxx
Live every minute, don't waste time on petty shit, don't leave words of love or friendship unsaid, say sorry, it cost nothing, you never know if you will get the chance, only yesterday is guaranteed....
Peace be with you all
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Sorry to hear that, Jo. Very sad news.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yeah, that sucks. Sorry Jo.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Sorry to hear that Jo.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| There is no need to apologize. To Not many people express themselves that way. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Cheers guys, xxx
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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What I have to do today is saddening.
It shouldn't have come to this but there is no alternative. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| 3.14159 wrote: | What I have to do today is saddening.
It shouldn't have come to this but there is no alternative. |
Does it require me to bake a cake with a key in it?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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What I have is a "boil" that needs to be lanced.
What saddens me is I have to put on a suit and take myself to Ballarat to it.
(I'm sure your cakes are delicious).  |
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