 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| Can you remember any time that [quote]
you know that might did it? |
|
|
|
 |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I don't think this analogy will really work, because anyone thick enough to think that violence and terror are the sole domains of Islamic adherents probably already conceives of Mexico as a racial/cultural "other" that fails to live up to the superiority and moral upstandingness of white Anglo-Saxon society anyway. So merely saying "look at the shocking violence prevalent in this 90% Christian society like Mexico" isn't going to be compelling enough for such people to confront their prejudices.
But on any deeper level, the analogy falls down, because (supposedly) religiously-inspired violence is what's driving the current social panic. On a motivation level, these phenomena are chalk and cheese. Whatever impact Latin American drug cartels has on our society, it's hardly obvious to the naked eye. Certainly, in the popular imagination, it's nothing compared to daydreams of being blown up at the shopping centre.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
|
| Post subject: | |
|
The violence in Mexico has nothing to do with religion though and all to do with drugs and corruption.
Glad we don't border Mexico as it's a shit hole of the highest order.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Quite a beautiful shithole, at least through a camera lens...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYeXnNzJ89Y
Any country that produces filmmakers like this can't be all bad. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Robert Rodriguez makes a damn good movie too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I16020r--oM
Interesting that he has a frequent theme of the drugs and government corruption in mexico in his movies.
Michelle Rodriguez is absolutely smoking.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I'm sure Mexico is fine for the wealthy cultural elite.
For the rest of the 99.9% population it's a shit hole.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | I don't think this analogy will really work, because anyone thick enough to think that violence and terror are the sole domains of Islamic adherents probably already conceives of Mexico as a racial/cultural "other" that fails to live up to the superiority and moral upstandingness of white Anglo-Saxon society anyway. So merely saying "look at the shocking violence prevalent in this 90% Christian society like Mexico" isn't going to be compelling enough for such people to confront their prejudices.
But on any deeper level, the analogy falls down, because (supposedly) religiously-inspired violence is what's driving the current social panic. On a motivation level, these phenomena are chalk and cheese. Whatever impact Latin American drug cartels has on our society, it's hardly obvious to the naked eye. Certainly, in the popular imagination, it's nothing compared to daydreams of being blown up at the shopping centre. |
On the first paragraph, agreed.
On the second, it's more disturbingly analogous than you're allowing yourself to believe. In Latin America, you have drug cartels, gangsters and corrupt officials professing to be of a certain religion engaging in outright terrorism. In certain other countries you have the exact same scenario, except they're professing to be of another religion.
The difference? People are so used to Christianity, they reflexively assume the Latin American terrorists and cartels gangsters are not true believers; they do mass, they pray, they confess, they thank god heartily for this and that, but they're not Christians because they're violent thugs and by definition Christians are not violent thugs.
Such is the extent of immersion in one mythology, and aversion to another, that identical situations are interpreted arbitrarily in opposite directions.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| swoop42 wrote: | I'm sure Mexico is fine for the wealthy cultural elite.
For the rest of the 99.9% population it's a shit hole. |
So, in your analysis, that's why some of those religious people turn extremist?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| swoop42 wrote: | I'm sure Mexico is fine for the wealthy cultural elite.
For the rest of the 99.9% population it's a shit hole. |
not sure on the percentages, but yeah
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | I'm sure Mexico is fine for the wealthy cultural elite.
For the rest of the 99.9% population it's a shit hole. |
So, in your analysis, that's why some of those religious people turn extremist? |
There is a big difference from identifying as a Christian and practising as one.
I was Christened in the Anglican church and could identify myself as a Christian if I so wished but outside of funerals and weddings wouldn't have stepped inside a church in decades.
Besides the crimes in Mexico aren't being done in the name of Jesus Christ they are being done in spite of some of those having faith in him.
Muslim extremists like we saw yesterday act in the name of Allah.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: | | David wrote: | I don't think this analogy will really work, because anyone thick enough to think that violence and terror are the sole domains of Islamic adherents probably already conceives of Mexico as a racial/cultural "other" that fails to live up to the superiority and moral upstandingness of white Anglo-Saxon society anyway. So merely saying "look at the shocking violence prevalent in this 90% Christian society like Mexico" isn't going to be compelling enough for such people to confront their prejudices.
But on any deeper level, the analogy falls down, because (supposedly) religiously-inspired violence is what's driving the current social panic. On a motivation level, these phenomena are chalk and cheese. Whatever impact Latin American drug cartels has on our society, it's hardly obvious to the naked eye. Certainly, in the popular imagination, it's nothing compared to daydreams of being blown up at the shopping centre. |
On the first paragraph, agreed.
On the second, it's more disturbingly analogous than you're allowing yourself to believe. In Latin America, you have drug cartels, gangsters and corrupt officials professing to be of a certain religion engaging in outright terrorism. In certain other countries you have the exact same scenario, except they're professing to be of another religion.
The difference? People are so used to Christianity, they reflexively assume the Latin American terrorists and cartels gangsters are not true believers; they do mass, they pray, they confess, they thank god heartily for this and that, but they're not Christians because they're violent thugs and by definition Christians are not violent thugs.
Such is the extent of immersion in one mythology, and aversion to another, that identical situations are interpreted arbitrarily in opposite directions. |
But surely it's patently obvious that these are not identical situations. There's a significant difference between crimes committed by Christians and crimes committed because of a belief in a form of Christianity.
Of course, as critics of new atheism are right to point out, Islamic extremism is about so much more than religion. But while that analysis might hold firm for, say, the actions of ISIS or attacks on US embassies, the religious link couldn't really be clearer in this incident. It'd be hard to find a more clear-cut example of religious fundamentalism's intolerance of open criticism and mockery. The power dynamics may have shifted slightly, but this incident has more in common with heretics being burned at the stake in the 15th century than drug cartels in Mexico.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | Robert Rodriguez makes a damn good movie too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I16020r--oM
Interesting that he has a frequent theme of the drugs and government corruption in mexico in his movies.
Michelle Rodriguez is absolutely smoking. |
Uh huh born in Texas to a Dominican republic mother, and Puerto Rican father!
Not Mexican, but still stunning!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Robert Rodriguez makes a damn good movie too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I16020r--oM
Interesting that he has a frequent theme of the drugs and government corruption in mexico in his movies.
Michelle Rodriguez is absolutely smoking. |
Uh huh born in Texas to a Dominican republic mother, and Puerto Rican father!
Not Mexican, but still stunning! |
They all look the same to Stui.
.....from behind. 
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Her I definitely like to look at from the front. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | But surely it's patently obvious that these are not identical situations. There's a significant difference between crimes committed by Christians and crimes committed because of a belief in a form of Christianity.
Of course, as critics of new atheism are right to point out, Islamic extremism is about so much more than religion. But while that analysis might hold firm for, say, the actions of ISIS or attacks on US embassies, the religious link couldn't really be clearer in this incident. It'd be hard to find a more clear-cut example of religious fundamentalism's intolerance of open criticism and mockery. The power dynamics may have shifted slightly, but this incident has more in common with heretics being burned at the stake in the 15th century than drug cartels in Mexico. |
It's not clear at all; in fact miles from clear at any serious level of analysis you might wish to publish and stake your reputation on.
If religion is simply a mode of culture, which it is, that makes it a form and an idiom. So what other form would you expect someone who has grown up in an Islamic idiom to use as a mode of psychiatric expression? Buddhism? Confucianism? Postmodernism? Religion is general culture to the extent that it is mainstream or the culture available to children. And in Latin America, Christianity is the dominant idiom, so of course people operate in that culture as Christians. And, just as you have Arabic Muslims, you also have Peruvian Christians, so they mutate in just the same way.
If so, what makes you think Colombian gangsters are not being gangsters as Christians? It's possible some are and some aren't, but the fact is we wouldn't know that in advance unless we create a new theory of certain Latin American cultures which denies the overt claims of Latin American Christian extremist gangster terrorists, yet believes the overt claims of Yemeni extremist gangster Muslims. What makes you more sure one is doing it for god and one isn't? Their words? Their psychiatries? Some new theory of the relationship between culture and religion? Or your preprogrammed biases?
Last edited by pietillidie on Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
