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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Errr ... I made no comment on literal (or indeed any other) interpretations. Nor do I have any interest in them, WPT. I do like a nice theological debate to while away the hours sometimes, but worthwhile debates are all about reason and logic and the cut and thrust of brilliant minds; they have little or nothing in common with the mindless "he said - she said" stuff which passes for debate amongst those who think quoting scripture proves stuff. Hell, is there anything you couldn't "prove" by quoting whichever holy book you have open today?
(PS: In case someone gets the wrong end of the stick, I'm not having a go at PM here, the above is nothing to do with his posts in this thread - apart from anything else, I haven't read them.)
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | I'm not religious, have no real interest in it and can't recall even basic teachings that probably took place sometime in my childhood schooling.
All I want to know is is there any actual real documented evidence that Jesus Christ the man (let alone the alleged Jesus Christ the son of God) even lived and existed?
And no Bible stories don't equate to proof for me. |
Clement, elder of Rome, letter to the Corinthian church (95 AD):
"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their firstfruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."
Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, letter to the Trallians (110-115 AD):
"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth; who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His Father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe on Him."
Ignatius, letter to the Smyrneans (110-115 AD):
"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a virgin and baptised by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit are we--that is, of his most blessed passion); that He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection."
"For I know and believe that He was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when He came to Peter and his company, He said to them, 'Lay hold and handle me, and see that I am not a demon without body.' And straightway they touched him, and they believed, being joined unto His flesh and His blood. Wherefore also they despised death, nay they were found superior to death. And after His resurrection He ate with them and drank with them."
Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians (110-115 AD):
"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate; for these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope."
Quadratus, to Emperor Hadrian about 125 AD:
"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when He had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."
just to name a few |
I think this is why historians prefer non-Christian sources...
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| David wrote: | The only non-Christian sources are Josephus and Tacitus, from memory.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus
Apparently nearly all historical scholars nowadays believe that Jesus existed:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
| Quote: | Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century that the New Testament has no historical value, there are no non-Christian references to Jesus Christ from the first century, and that Christianity had pagan and/or mythical roots.
Despite arguments put forward by authors who have questioned the existence of a historical Jesus, there remains a nearly universal consensus agreement in historical-critical biblical scholarship that Jesus lived. However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesuses" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic. The two main events agreed upon by most biblical scholars are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate. |
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Geezus. 
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oops. Too much data. |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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touche', but its trumped by john 3:16
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Genesis 1:1 |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| John 11:35 |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Austin 3.16?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Austin 3.16? |
STONE COLD
and expendable
or are we talking bionics? or was that symantecs?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Dolby digital 5.1
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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lol
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Genesis 1:1 |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| swoop42 wrote: | | Dolby digital 5.1 |
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Whoa, I googled that, (I got gnocchi first!) I'd thought you'd made that name up! You must read a lot of strange books!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | | Whoa, I googled that, (I got gnocchi first!) I'd thought you'd made that name up! You must read a lot of strange books! |
(I did quote an online newspaper - but Gnostics have always been interesting)
Harold Bloom is one prominent & interesting Gnostic that comes to mind.
Yes a little Napoli sauce over some fresh Gnotics with some Parmesan cheese on top 
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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