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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Post subject: Jesus (facts, fiction and speculation) |  |
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Christ wasn't born on dec 25!
http://realtruth.org/articles/169-ttooc.html
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Christ was born in the autumn of the year. Many have mistakenly believed He was born around the beginning of winter—December 25th! They are wrong! “It was custom among Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts about the Passover [early spring], and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain.” The first rains began in early-to-mid fall. Continuing with this same quote: “During the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As…the first rain began early in the month of March-esvan, which answers to part of our October and November [begins sometime in October], we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground, the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact… |
| wrote: | “In the Roman world, the Saturnalia (December 17) was a time of merrymaking and exchanging of gifts. December 25 was also regarded as the birthdate of the Iranian mystery god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year (January 1), houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and gifts were given to children and the poor. To these observances were added the German and Celtic Yule rites when the Teutonic tribes penetrated into Gaul, Britain and central Europe. Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life, have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian”.
December 25th was not selected because it was the birth of Christ or because it was even near it. It was selected because it coincided with the idolatrous pagan festival Saturnalia—and this celebration must be carefully examined. In any event, we do not know the exact date of Christ's birth. While God certainly could have made it known, He chose to hide it from the world's eyes! |
As a practicing Atheist (with Wiccan sympathies) I find Davids "Happy Holiday" greeting entirely appropriate!
BTW, hassling David because he isn't towing the Christmas line is at odds with almost everything Christ is supposed to have preached!*
*The New Testament wasn't written till at least 100 years after his death so the whole thing (the NT) is really little more than hear-say anyway!!!
Last edited by 3.14159 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| 3.14159 wrote: | Christ wasn't born on dec 25!
http://realtruth.org/articles/169-ttooc.html
| wrote: |
Christ was born in the autumn of the year. Many have mistakenly believed He was born around the beginning of winter—December 25th! They are wrong! “It was custom among Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts about the Passover [early spring], and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain.” The first rains began in early-to-mid fall. Continuing with this same quote: “During the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As…the first rain began early in the month of March-esvan, which answers to part of our October and November [begins sometime in October], we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground, the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact… |
| wrote: | “In the Roman world, the Saturnalia (December 17) was a time of merrymaking and exchanging of gifts. December 25 was also regarded as the birthdate of the Iranian mystery god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year (January 1), houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and gifts were given to children and the poor. To these observances were added the German and Celtic Yule rites when the Teutonic tribes penetrated into Gaul, Britain and central Europe. Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life, have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian”.
December 25th was not selected because it was the birth of Christ or because it was even near it. It was selected because it coincided with the idolatrous pagan festival Saturnalia—and this celebration must be carefully examined. In any event, we do not know the exact date of Christ's birth. While God certainly could have made it known, He chose to hide it from the world's eyes! |
As a practicing Atheist (with Wiccan sympathies) I find Davids "Happy Holiday" greeting entirely appropriate!
BTW, hassling David because he isn't towing the Christmas line is at odds with almost everything Christ is supposed to have preached!*
*The New Testament wasn't written till at least 100 years after his death so the whole thing (the NT) is really little more than hear-say anyway!!! |
Christ was not born on Dec 25th. Correct.
But you could not be more wrong on when the NT was written. Seriously mate, STUDY it closely. Hate religion all you like but please do not just talk shit. Cheers.
_________________
" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| laird wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: |
*The New Testament wasn't written till at least 100 years after his death so the whole thing (the NT) is really little more than hear-say anyway!!! |
Christ was not born on Dec 25th. Correct.
But you could not be more wrong on when the NT was written. Seriously mate, STUDY it closely. Hate religion all you like but please do not just talk shit. Cheers. |
My mistake, I should have said it wasn't completed till almost 100 years after his death.
Revelation, John John 1 2 and 3 were written around A.D 98!
I don't "hate" religion, I just don't see why I should have to conform to book written thousands of years ago and has absolutely no relevance to the way I live my life!
btw, "Cruxifiction" was a VERY specific punishment.
It was reserved for special crimes and speaking against Judaism wasn't one of them!
Principally acts:
1. Of terrorism (or imputed terrorism such as speaking out against Rome) or
2. Flying in the face of Roman custom (such as slaves either rebelling against their masters or disrespecting them with acts of theft, violence, spitting in their food or rape).
It was therefore a punishment largely reserved for slaves or apprehended rebels and was not administered to Roman citizens (which explains why Saint Paul, a Roman citizen [citizen of Rome being a legal rather than ethnic status] was beheaded rather than crucified whereas Saint Peter WAS crucified for preaching a seditious doctrine of divinity not residing in Rome's emperors but in Christ).
The interesting question this raises is why Jesus was crucified when there is nothing overtly anti-Roman in his views; unless of course Jesus' true mission was whitewashed to hide his zealot terrorist leanings.
If this is questioned consider that among Jesus' known apostles were:
1. Simon the Zealot
2. Judas Sicarius (the Sicarii were a group of Hebrew terrorists who killed with a special dagger known as a Sicarii - these men had their own Krav Maga style martial art and were the blueprint for the pseudo Islamic Hasshashin)
3. James and John the Sons of Thunder (a rank used by the zealots)
4. Peter, who was armed with a sword in Gethsemane and who Jesus begged to stop carving a swathe through the Temple Guard |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | laird wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: |
*The New Testament wasn't written till at least 100 years after his death so the whole thing (the NT) is really little more than hear-say anyway!!! |
Christ was not born on Dec 25th. Correct.
But you could not be more wrong on when the NT was written. Seriously mate, STUDY it closely. Hate religion all you like but please do not just talk shit. Cheers. |
My mistake, I should have said it wasn't completed till almost 100 years after his death.
Revelation, John John 1 2 and 3 were written around A.D 98!
I don't "hate" religion, I just don't see why I should have to conform to book written thousands of years ago and has absolutely no relevance to the way I live my life!
btw, "Cruxifiction" was a VERY specific punishment.
It was reserved for special crimes and speaking against Judaism wasn't one of them!
Principally acts:
1. Of terrorism (or imputed terrorism such as speaking out against Rome) or
2. Flying in the face of Roman custom (such as slaves either rebelling against their masters or disrespecting them with acts of theft, violence, spitting in their food or rape).
It was therefore a punishment largely reserved for slaves or apprehended rebels and was not administered to Roman citizens (which explains why Saint Paul, a Roman citizen [citizen of Rome being a legal rather than ethnic status] was beheaded rather than crucified whereas Saint Peter WAS crucified for preaching a seditious doctrine of divinity not residing in Rome's emperors but in Christ).
The interesting question this raises is why Jesus was crucified when there is nothing overtly anti-Roman in his views; unless of course Jesus' true mission was whitewashed to hide his zealot terrorist leanings.
If this is questioned consider that among Jesus' known apostles were:
1. Simon the Zealot
2. Judas Sicarius (the Sicarii were a group of Hebrew terrorists who killed with a special dagger known as a Sicarii - these men had their own Krav Maga style martial art and were the blueprint for the pseudo Islamic Hasshashin)
3. James and John the Sons of Thunder (a rank used by the zealots)
4. Peter, who was armed with a sword in Gethsemane and who Jesus begged to stop carving a swathe through the Temple Guard |
Completed within 100 years ( entire NT). Yes.
You do not have to conform to anything 
Crucifixtion was very common.
John and James were transformed through Christ ( that is the point ).
Peter was armed with sword. For protection. As were others.They were not well liked in general
As for Jesus' true mission etc. It reminded me instantly of a great scene in 'Bad Santa' when Billy Bob Thornton is driving little boy home.
"Wha, wha," (gasp) " Are you f#@kin with me"
Have a great day mate and I was/am very pleased to follow your hassles with neighbour and you not having to leave where you love living.
_________________
" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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(Not directed at Laird (obviously), he just hit POST faster!)
So why not just ignore the posts / threads where we as friends wish each other Merry Christmas, and share our blessings? Is it necessary to rain on every parade? Do you score extra points? Can't one thread be sacred? Rather aptly, a Christmas thread?
A little peace and harmony, too much to ask?
In the words of my then 5 year old daughter "if you have nothing nice to say, shut up!".
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| think positive wrote: | (Not directed at Laird (obviously), he just hit POST faster!)
So why not just ignore the posts / threads where we as friends wish each other Merry Christmas, and share our blessings? Is it necessary to rain on every parade? Do you score extra points? Can't one thread be sacred? Rather aptly, a Christmas thread?
A little peace and harmony, too much to ask?
In the words of my then 5 year old daughter "if you have nothing nice to say, shut up!". |
Just saw your amended post.
I had already put on the sackcloth and crept away 
I got told
Takes two to tango.
Merry (scratch that), Happy H...(scratch that too). Ummm everyone have a brilliant day!!
_________________
" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| laird wrote: |
You do not have to conform to anything
Crucifixtion was very common.
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Crucifixtion was NOT common!
(Least waes not at the time of Christ)
It was a very specific punishment for specific crimes.
Crucifixion was used for slaves, pirates, and enemies of the state. It was considered a most shameful and disgraceful way to die. Condemned Roman citizens were usually exempt from crucifixion except for major crimes against the state, such as high treason.
Caesar cruxified over a hundred pirates (after they had abducted and ransomed him) and Crassus lined the Appian way with 6000 Spartacist slaves.
Christ is said to have been cruxified next to 2 thieves.
Again, stealing wasn't a crime punishable that way and it leads one to wonder what Jesus did to warrant such treatment and casts doubt on his philosophy of peace love and mung beans!
http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/22725/what-crime-was-committed-by-the-thieves-crucified-with-jesus
Last edited by 3.14159 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oh I get it. Very interesting. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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3, if I recall correctly, the Romans had different standards for Roman citizens and those of colonised lands, who they viewed as inferior. It might have been an unusual punishment in Rome, but my impression is that it was much more common in Judea and elsewhere.
Personally, I don't see the gospels as a historically accurate account of Jesus's life, but more a blend of recorded fact (some of his sayings, apostles, trial and crucifixion), hearsay (many of his sayings and doings) and outright invention (the birth in Bethlehem, resurrection and obviously any miracles). Clearly, he existed and was a significant figure of his day, and I find it hard to believe that his persona could have been so different from that which is described. How could a popular fighter against imperialism (as you describe him, 3) gain a following that was so devoted to communal living and non-violence? Evidently, there must be some real-life crossover between his teachings and that which is ascribed to him. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| laird wrote: | | think positive wrote: | (Not directed at Laird (obviously), he just hit POST faster!)
So why not just ignore the posts / threads where we as friends wish each other Merry Christmas, and share our blessings? Is it necessary to rain on every parade? Do you score extra points? Can't one thread be sacred? Rather aptly, a Christmas thread?
A little peace and harmony, too much to ask?
In the words of my then 5 year old daughter "if you have nothing nice to say, shut up!". |
Just saw your amended post.
I had already put on the sackcloth and crept away
I got told
Takes two to tango.
Merry (scratch that), Happy H...(scratch that too). Ummm everyone have a brilliant day!! |
See that shits me! Never let someone stamp on your beliefs, your entitled to them
And a MERRY Christ-mas, and a Happy Holiday period to you too!
Cheers 
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| think positive wrote: | | laird wrote: | | think positive wrote: | (Not directed at Laird (obviously), he just hit POST faster!)
So why not just ignore the posts / threads where we as friends wish each other Merry Christmas, and share our blessings? Is it necessary to rain on every parade? Do you score extra points? Can't one thread be sacred? Rather aptly, a Christmas thread?
A little peace and harmony, too much to ask?
In the words of my then 5 year old daughter "if you have nothing nice to say, shut up!". |
Just saw your amended post.
I had already put on the sackcloth and crept away
I got told
Takes two to tango.
Merry (scratch that), Happy H...(scratch that too). Ummm everyone have a brilliant day!! |
See that shits me! Never let someone stamp on your beliefs, your entitled to them
And a MERRY Christ-mas, and a Happy Holiday period to you too!
Cheers |
Just to be clear Jo, you told me (joking  )- no-one did or could
And in all seriousness I am personally too busy to bother with hurt feelings about Merry or Happy or whatever. Just words. People get the idea of the good wishes that are meant - if they don't, really WGAF, it's their issue
You just get on with it.
Pray you having a great Christmas
_________________
" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | If mods are going to split threads which is not always a bad thing can you at least announce it into the OP. |
scary, that's twice we agree on something in one day!
A little moderation from the moderators please! If you split every thread that goes of on a tangent, gees we will run out of bandwidth |
So, you were complaining about people arguing about Jesus in the Christmas thread, but now you're annoyed that the thread was split?
No pleasing some people!
http://youtu.be/U74s8nFE7No |
yeah I thought of that on the way home from picking up my eldest from work! but you beat me home! (lola got to ya huh!)
though I was a little put out when I clicked on your link!!
before the life of brian clip was an add - dumb and dumber!!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Sorry Laird, I didn't mean to stand on your beliefs or try and denigrate you in any way.
I'm a born sceptic who likes a good a discussion and ancient Rome has been one of my interests for a long time.
Seasons greetings and all the best to you and yours. |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| 3.14159 wrote: |
Sorry Laird, I didn't mean to stand on your beliefs or try and denigrate you in any way.
I'm a born sceptic who likes a good a discussion and ancient Rome has been one of my interests for a long time.
Seasons greetings and all the best to you and yours. |
Michael, I actually thought you trod very gently around my beliefs. No problem at all from my end mate .
I learnt a long time ago that as I do debate, discuss this topic alot in day to day life, that VPT, albeit a great pub, it never goes well when discussed here .
I only commented in the first place as writings of the NT beginning after 100 years is extremely different from being completed in less than 100 years as it removes the (possibility) of eye witness accounts and 2nd hand knowledge of accounts.
As I said, compared to what I am used to daily, you were polite and quite respectful and you have every rite to question things- as with any topic.
Sincerely, All the best to you and yours too, mate
_________________
" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Should there be a problem? |
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