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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:01 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
There are times when I like Senator Leyonhjelm. This isn't one of them.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/dec/18/leyonhjelms-gun-control-criticism-over-sydney-siege-called-seductive-nonsense


Christ on a bike - really!!!! Shocked

What on earth is he thinking - his suggestion that we all be armed is the stupidest thing I have heard for a long time and given my job where I hear some pretty stupid things on a regular basis that's saying something!!

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:06 pm
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The AFP got it wrong, he didn't have a gun licence. Not that it matters if you have an illegal firearm. I expect the current Government to use this to tighten immigration laws even further. Unless you are on a 457 Visa working for Gina.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:16 pm
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Morrigu wrote:
David wrote:
There are times when I like Senator Leyonhjelm. This isn't one of them.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/dec/18/leyonhjelms-gun-control-criticism-over-sydney-siege-called-seductive-nonsense


Christ on a bike - really!!!! Shocked

What on earth is he thinking - his suggestion that we all be armed is the stupidest thing I have heard for a long time and given my job where I hear some pretty stupid things on a regular basis that's saying something!!


yeah, it's pretty dumb but that's how some of the Septics logic things out cos they haven't ever known any difference.

The basic statistics that everyone having guns doesn't reduce shootings doesn't seem to filter through.

Prior to the gun law changes here, this clown could have picked up some serious hardware cheap and easy. Putting the US concealed carry laws into the debate is ridiculous. If I'm in the sheiks position and one of the hostages tries to pull a snub nose .38 out of his back pocket they better be a damn good shot because at close range with a shotgun, I don't need to be a good shot to **** you up big time.

Dumb Dumb Dumb argument.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:19 pm
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That was not very original.
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:57 pm
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I ran the probabilities through the mighty brain of HAL's smarter brother.


  • Number of lives saved: 3
  • Number of bystanders killed in wild crossfire: 4
  • Number of completely innocent "attackers" shot dead by mistake: 7
  • Number of decent policemen killed when a gun owner panics after getting pulled over for something relatively minor, such as a random breath test: 2
  • Number of concealed gun owners killing themselves by random accident when cleaning gun, getting it stuck in pocket, etc: 2.
  • Number of concealed gun owners accidentally killed by their own children: 1
  • Number of concealed gun owners accidentally killing their own children: 2
  • Number of citizens shot by nervous police mistakenly thinking they had a gun.
  • Number of criminals with really easy access to as many guns as they want: 100%
  • Number murdered by concealed gun owners in a sudden, unpredictable fit of rage or after a relationship breakdown: 104.


Computer says no.

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:18 pm
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Congratulations on having no idea.

http://usfinancepost.com/more-guns-equal-less-crime-in-chicago-as-murder-rates-plummet-16413.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

Consistently where concealed carry exists, murder and crime rates plummet.

http://www.theacru.org/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

I would argue that it is the social fabric of Australia rather than draconian gun laws that lead to low murder rates, in fact some of the countries with the harshest gun laws have the highest murder rates (Mexico for example). Switzerland and Czech Republic have some of the most liberal gun laws and/or highest gun ownership rates and yet are civilized countries with low violence.

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

Towns in the USA that mandate firearm ownership have some of the lowest crime rates in the country.

http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

The right and ability to defend yourself, your family and your home against an attacker should be yours, not entrusted to governments and police forces.
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:43 pm
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I'm not even going to bother looking at those links. If I could be bothered dusting off my old statistics training, it would be a tedious but trivially simple exercise to demonstrate gross flaws in them. But I'm not going to bother. I have things to do and not one person with a clue takes your dangerous nutcase gun law proposals seriously anyway, so what would be the point?

Senator Leyonhjelm, what a sad case.

No-one ever heard of him or cared about him. Then he gets "elected" through a combination of a misleading party name, dodgy backroom micro-party preference deals, and a freak position at the front of the ballot paper. Oh, and 17 people voted for him knowingly and of their own free will. No-one knows why.

He takes his place in the Senate and despite a bad start, gradually earns himself a reputation for not being the weirdo fringe-party loonie eveybody expected him to be, and even showed conspicuous excellence when he was practically the only one to speak up about Abbott's dangerous and misguided big brother snooping laws. Rags to riches. Cinderella turns out to be prettier than expected and she can even dance a bit.

Then this. Total screw-up. All those months and months of hard work to get into a position where he was starting to be liked and respected by many across the spectrum, a position from which - against all prior expectations - he might even be able to recontest his seat when his term is up and stand a decent chance of winning it in his own right (dumb luck flukes like his original election don't happen twice) .... all that success ... and he fnucked it all up beyond repair in just one insane and tasteless press release. As an electoral possibility, Leyonhjelm is GAWN.

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:51 pm
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Lazy.

Alright, here's a picture for you.



data sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:57 pm
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^ Now add Australia and take out the failed states and the hell-holes with raging undeclared civil wars. You have provided garbage statistics of the worst kind. A child could spot the massive mistakes in them.
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:59 pm
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Is that a joke, Wokko? Now post the stats for OECD. Disgraceful post - I hope I've missed some mischievous irony in that.
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Last edited by pietillidie on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:59 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Tannin wrote:
^ Now add Australia and take out the failed states and the hell-holes with raging undeclared civil wars. You have provided garbage statistics of the worst kind. A child could spot the massive mistakes in them.
Be more specific.
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:10 pm
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Of course more firearms means more murders that do happen are done with a firearm. Equally suicide. What isn't so easy to establish is the effect on murder and even more so on violent crime. The USA is always latched onto by those who are terrified of weapons, but when high gun ownership European countries (and Canada) are looked at the picture is quite different. Even in the USA, concealed carry 'shall issue' legislation has correlated with lower crime and murder rates.

Many mass killings are done in areas of high gun control or 'gun free' zones, and indeed there have been many incidents prevented by armed civilians. Like I said, it is Australia's (and Switzerlands, Canada's, Finland's etc) CULTURE that leads to lower homicide and crime rates rather than gun laws or ownership rates.
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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:13 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Congratulations on having no idea.


Yes indeed given the links you supplied to support your argument ( and yes i did look at them and discounted them very quickly as opinion very poorly dressed up as " fact" - not an ounce of credible reasearch or findings to be seen) I would say congratulations on having no idea is certainly applicable.

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:20 pm
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Gun laws or no gun laws won't stop loonies.

Give me 3k and i'll get you a Glock on the weekend.

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:21 pm
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Morrigu wrote:
Yes indeed given the links you supplied to support your argument ( and yes i did look at them and discounted them very quickly as opinion very poorly dressed up as " fact" - not an ounce of credible reasearch or findings to be seen) I would say congratulations on having no idea is certainly applicable.


Your feelings aren't statistically relevant.

I know full well that Australians are indoctrinated against self defence and firearms and would never expect laws relating to either issue (and they are seperate but similar issues) to change, but if your home was invaded or you were car jacked then your views would change very fast. We're incredibly lucky to live in a wealthy, generally peaceful country, but equating our self defence and firearm laws with this peace is delusional.

This guy was using a weapon that has been banned since Howards Laws came into effect, didn't stop him getting it. I don't see why we expect criminals to respect firearms laws but not those against homicide, burglary and assault, it's asinine.


Last edited by Wokko on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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