The MYTHunderstood factors in TRUE forward line pressure.

[John Wren]

[uncanny]

[droversdog65]

Well uncanny without being rude or crass I'm bloody happy to see the back of Lappin, it's simply undeniable that our forward structures have been going backward during his tenure.

Sure big Trav gets a raw deal from the umps week in and week out but we are setting up for that by stationing him in the square. IMVHO he does his best work by far when allowed to make his own space and to have a run at the ball.

It may be true that he has been carrying niggles and therefore hasn't been as mobile as previous seasons but if he's fit enough to play at FF then he's at least fit enough to play at CHF - which I believe is his prime position. There at least even if he didn't have the full fitness to go on his long searching leads he had options of movement where he could outposition opposition players.

FF is an attrocious waste of the big guy's athletic prowess - and incidently I believe tends to set us up for rebound attacks and rushed behinds. Actually I would like to have rushed behind figures at my fingertips - I have a sneaking suspicion that they would have gone up significantly with Trav at full forward being double, triple and at times quadruple teamed for heavens sake.

So let's get the big guy out of purgotory and let him create his own space, that move alone will give us a huge lift in menace.

[uncanny]

spot on comment dd65
here's hoping for more cutting edge coaching strategies, Trav back to his best and a willing support cast for him getting fed their lines with precision from those in the engine room. That would move us from purgatory to heaven.

[droversdog65]

Thx uncanny and I'm with you in praying for a more balanced and realistic forward half strategy - AND implementation.

[loch]

Defense is fine and absolutely necessary but defense first, second and third and then think about attack is reactionary and self defeating. We have slipped too far down the scale and have lost our attacking flair - and more importantly attacking poise.[/quote]

Agree with this. As Tommy would have said, keep it simple. Forward pressure is what you do when they have the ball. It's what you avoid when you have the ball, by such things as reading the play and good disposal. So first, make sure that you have the ball. Forward pressure, as DD said, is a massively draining way of getting the pill back, even though it does work. It's what you do when you have a problem, not what you do first.

Great discussion, by the way!

[Cleomenes]

Defensive forwards are a fixed part of every side these days, Since it became standard for goals to be built from breakaways on the backline, it has been necessary to shut out the playmaking backmen that are the heart of it.
Hawthorn have been able to cover this tactic by having all of their backmen able to perform the attacking role, putting pressure on opposition sides to defend more. Port indicated where the solution to this might lie in this year's finals.
The fundamental point originally made is valid: if you are attacking the goals, the opposition are not. Over 100 minutes though, every situation has to be covered.
Our problem at present is that there is no Thomas, krakouer or Didak in the side to terrorise opposition backs, and so other methods have to be found that recognize what we do and don't have on the field.
Forward delivery has been a growing problem for years, and now it is expected to be bad. Rectifying this will be slow, but until it is done, we have to deal with it with more than just moans of despair.
I am very hopeful that the solutions are on the list, particularly with the likes of Broomhead. The resumption of play with two genuine key forwards will also help.

[droversdog65]

Like you cleo I'm hopeful that the club has managed to draft the right players to remedy the situation and readily agree that defense has an important and rightful place in any forward setup.

It's just not possible to be cut and dried with any statements regarding the list over the last couple of years due to the astronomical levels of injuries we have had to carry. Major upheavals in the coaching, support and medical staff at the same time have contribited their share to the chaos, it's a marvel we have made finals at all and just missing out last year was actually a very good effort when you evaluate the unknown injuries and illnesses that a number of our players were carrying without the fans knowing.

Without wishing to harp on it, I believe Cloke out at CHF needs to be the key move. Reid at FF is a possiblity if he can get and remain fit, this would allow White to finally play the role he was originally recruited for so we have then have the bones of a tall, mobile and reasonably quick 3 prong tall attack. Add Elliott as a high marking midsize with increasingly good groundskills, Fasolo as a strong marking mid size and Broomhead adding the zippy ground level crumbing forward and we have a forward line that is actually a very potent mix.

The next part of the puzzle is a forward coach with half a clue, we need to have some forward line leading patterns worked out that are flexible and take into account our personel mix. That in itself will provide good movement and give our mids / running half backs more 1 on 1's to work with on forward 50 entry.

Finally the introduction of the likes of Freeman, Shazza and perhaps DeGoo with better footskills / poise coming downfield should give us better entries into that forward 50.

Truly I believe we have the personel. IF we can get them on the park. IF we can keep them there. IF our new forward coach can get them to gel and provide proper targets for downfield players we have the basics to surprise a hell of a lot of people.

[jackcass]

[droversdog65]

Sorry to disagree Jackass but ask Ross Lyon about defensive mindsets - always the bridesmaid.

[jackcass]

That's overly simplistic DD65 and I've been guilty of conveniently using the same analogy. Look deeper at the Freo and St Kilda sides under Lyon and their performances during finals and you'll find it was firstly the inability of their offense to overcome the oppositions defensive application (beaten at their own game), secondly an over reliance upon too few (too easy to close down), thirdly some very untimely injury issues, and lastly they didn't take their chances (offensive fail).

[droversdog65]

Much the same could have been said of our teams in the 70's - in that they issues yet they didn't win flags.

Afraid have to agree to disagree.

3 things make a huge contribution to a successful flag winning season.

Winning enough games to make top 4 finish.

Winning by enough to ensure a decent percentage.

Those first 2 will give you a great shot given a good list and injury luck.

The final one is the killer for defensive football.

NO team is going to give you a final - let alone a grand final. Playing defensive football depends on making your opposition make enough mistakes for you to kick a winning score.

You can get by during the season with bottom half teams making enough mistakes and you may force close wins agains teams in the top 5 - 8 bracket during the main season. But it isn't going to happen against the top 3 or 4 unless they have off days. Once the finals come by you are dealing with teams that have survived the crucible and are inured to pressure - they wouldn't be participating otherwise.

You may squeek by in a few finals but in a grand final it's again a totally different story.

Pressure is expected, so any team to reach it must be great at handling pressure. IF your game is built around pressuring your opponents to force enough mistakes to win you ARE going to struggle.

Lyon's teams have always been highly competitive but that ISN'T enough to take the candy.

You have to rip the cup out of the opposition's hands in the big dance and to do that you have to be prepared to attack.

There's nowhere to hide - it's either take or be taken.

[Woods]

Interesting story just popped up on the Collingwood website discussing aspects of Collingwood's forward pressure. The snap-at-goal figures were very good this year.

Link: http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2014-12-15/pies-pinpoint-forward-pressure

Pies pinpoint forward pressure

AFL Media's Ben Guthrie analyses an area of Collingwood's game that stood out in season 2014.

When the Magpies pushed into the top four earlier this year it was their tackling pressure that was the club's trademark.

Tyson Goldsack and Jarryd Blair both thrived in applying pressure up forward, while captain Scott Pendlebury took out the Gavin Brown Award for leading desire indicators and amassed 116 tackles through the season.

Collingwood also made a point of working on their accuracy in front of goal. The Magpies were a bit hit and miss from set shots, but executed well from snap shots.

Jamie Elliott, Blair and Travis Cloke are reliable exponents of the skill.

Cloke kicked 39 goals and 25 behinds in 2014, Elliott kicked 33.11 while Blair managed 12.11.

Collingwood in 2014
Tackles: 71.1 (2nd). AFL average is 66.5
Accuracy from snap shots: 59.8% (3rd). AFL average is 53.0%

[droversdog65]

Bit of a lopsided headline when you consider it's praising pressure AND improved accuracy but the headline trumpets pressure. Just goes to show how a headline can slant a story.

Ignoring the headline I read it as an improved all round performance - which is a horse of a very different colour to the misleading headline.

[loki04]