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The MYTHunderstood factors in TRUE forward line pressure.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:26 am
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Yes, even that.
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:55 am
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droversdog65 wrote:
With respect jackass I doubt anyone posting on a footy forum has the slightest idea regarding recruiting aims and imperatives, however I understand your point and truthfully am nuetral on it having no solid evidence one way or another your opinion is as good as mine or any other.

As for the midfield it certainly has declined somewhat, that being unavoidable considering the circumstances you have already outlined.

However my concerns reach deeper than mere personel or game plans and coaching is only tangential to the problem.

The crux - IMVHO - is a team and club consciousness that borders on victim like. To be clear with that we have tuned our entire strategy to reactive, defensive motifs rather than proactive, creative ones. We have become a club that stuff happens to us out on the field and we react to it, rather than driving circumstances we are driven before them.

Such behaviour is victim like.

Time to take control of circumstance again in the only way that means anything. Screw boundary line play, screw total focus on pressure acts - let's get on the front foot with big bodied, skilled players willing and eager to take the game on and forge the result off our own initiative.

Above all lets get those young men who demonstrate a desire to play for the guernsey and their team mates out there on the park and forge a brotherhood instead of a team.

Side by side we stick together isn't just a line from the most famous sporting club's song in Australia - it's part of our team's ethos and what we should be standing up for.


With respect dd65, I didn't claim to have knowledge of the recruiting aims and imperatives, just highlighted that both Blair and Goldsack played TAC as mids, not defensive forward role players of recent times and the lack of a Krakouer/Didak type exacerbates the way that manifests match day.

That and the fact that I thought the midfield was our biggest issue and recent recruiting (Kennedy, Broomhead, Adams, Freeman, Scharenberg, DeGoey, Maynard, Greenwood, Varcoe, Goodyear, Crisp, Manteit, even players like Marsh and Karnezis have midfield ambitions, and Grundy) should address that given time.

As for the victim stuff, I don't see it among the playing group or supporters I know so not sure how you've reached that assumption unless you're suggesting that acknowledging issues such as injuries implies weakness or vulnerability. I'm pretty confident that the guys on our list have no more or less passion for the jumper than any other list has for theirs. Don't see how playing good defense and being reactionary equates to being a victim either, very long bow.
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:59 am
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That is not very polite. Compare that to below all lets get those young men who demonstrate a desire to play for the guernsey and their team mates out there on the park and forge a brotherhood of a team.
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:10 am
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droversdog65 wrote:
True enough mate and anyway attack is a frame of mind not a position. If you have an offensive mindset you can usually find a way to generate it anywhere or when.


The attacking and defending mind sets aren't mutually exclusive, players need to have both, the trick is which to use when and exersizing that discretion. Teams don't spend a lot of time practicing defensive aspects of the game with the aim of dumbing down the offensive traits of individual players, it's more about making it as instinctive as the more natural offensive traits.
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droversdog65 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:10 am
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Jack no need to take it quite so much to heart man, nor quite so literally. By using the term 'victim' I'm trying to highlight a reactive versus proactive mindset. In life people who are constantly in a reactionary posture are often victims or regard themselves as victims. Our playing style reflects a reactionary ethos in that we are focussed more on preventing damage than being creative.

It's this defensive first posture which I am deploring and saying that it is crippling our ability to be creative and generate our own scenarios.

Defense is fine and absolutely necessary but defense first, second and third and then think about attack is reactionary and self defeating. We have slipped too far down the scale and have lost our attacking flair - and more importantly attacking poise.
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droversdog65 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:14 am
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Thx for the props guys I don't get to the games anywhere near as much as I would like anymore but this interwebz thingy is surely a marvel Wink and allows me to keep abreast of the current buzz and talk to good people.
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Stinger 



Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: Canberra

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:42 am
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Wasn't it the Bombers under Knights that deployed an all out attacking game first with a view to defence second? It didn't work.

Then there are the defence first teams coached by Lyons, Roos and Longmire. They fell short because of lack of offensive game but still the teams were built around strong defense. Where have the hawks recruited strongly in the past 5 years? Gibson, Lake now Frawley. You can also add the Cats: Taylor, Lonergan, Mackie.

What sets the good teams apart from the not so goods is the transition from defence to attack, and an attack with strike power in front of goals to convert the opportunities. Think Franklin, Stevie J, Hawkins, Gunston, Roughhead, Tippett.

Then look at Freo who rely on a 34 year old who can't run like he used to. It's why North with Petrie went out with a whimper last year and why Port, no matter how fit they become, won't quite make it because the class of Westhoff and Shultz isn't quite there. Or the tigers with their poor man's Riewoldt. When a team strikes the right balance then they will challenge.

It's important for Reid to get back on the park: Cloke, Elliot, Reid and you can throw in Karnesis will give us fire power. Add Darcy to Brown, Frost, Langdon, Keefe down back and Goldsack and we should be stopping most forward lines in the comp. get everyone on the park and we should be back in the 8.
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Boot 



Joined: 22 Feb 2013


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:46 am
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Great Topic and Discussion. I think that the club did throw the baby out with the bathwater by becoming obsessed with defensive forwards i.e. Goldsack and Blair. These two were at their best when combined with in form Alan Didak, Leon Davies and Daisy Thomas type players. That was when the opposition were troubled most by our attack which was awesome with 3 power forwards ( Cloke, Dawes and Leigh Brown) surrounded with super skilled smaller players. With such attacking players who were all hard running and hence able to pressure the defense of opposition ( as Hawthorn's Cyril Rioli does now) the likes of Blair and Goldsack had little attention given to them allowing them off the leash to often become free in space to take a mark inside 50 and shoot for goal after getting a well directed pass from a dominant midfield.

IMO we have some way to go to get back the type of attack that will enable us to get some real scoreboard pressure on the opposition. e.g, we need another Power Forward to share the load with Cloke. I am not sure Read or White are Power Forwards as such but they might have to do till Darcy Moore gets big enough to push AFL defenders around. Hopefully Witts and / or Grundy can fill the Leigh Brown role of 3rd tall / resting ruck sufficiently well to give the opposition nightmares. The other missing factor is the small skillful forwards. Hopefully we will see the continued development of Elliot and Broomhead as well as the emergence of Ben Kennedy and Jordan De Goey as the small skillful forwards. To make an immediate impression perhaps Travis Varcoe can help fill the goal kicking small forward role in the short term.
After a couple of years of trying to play Swannie as a goal kicking forward, we need to go back to playing him and Pendles in the middle and having them gut run into the forward line to contribute to the scoreline. At their best Swan and Pendlebury would domnate the midfield and score a couple of goalls a game also (The loss of Beams as a goal kicking midfielder hurts).
I hope Cloke gets "on his bike" in 2015 and returns to 2010 form of running opponents off their feet while running up to the wing and back to the goal square again and again.
Lots of improvement from last year needed but I am excited by the options Collingwood have to get their in 2015. Go Pies!!

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droversdog65 



Joined: 27 Nov 2014


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:00 am
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MMM Stinger I don't think all out attack can ever work unless with overwhelming strength all over the ground but what I'm talking about is an aggressively attacking mindset that looks for the oppportunity to attack as opposed to that defensive cringe which seeks to minimize damage at all cost.

Boot good points I think it's perfectly clear we lack that second power forward and third tall option but as you rightly point out our options are still a little way down the trail on present tracking.

I think the best way to help minimize our attacking deficiencies is to promote good attacking moves.

I think the method for that revolves around two primaries.

Fistly the promotion and encouragement of our newer recruits with footskills and poise from the half back and wing positions so that we are capable of launching focussed attacks.

Secondly we desperately need our forward line coaching staff to get their heads out of their fundemental orifices and start our guys learning and perfecting a series of good and flexible leading patterns.

And lastly yes get Travis out of the square and let him use his huge tank.
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John Wren Virgo

"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."


Joined: 15 Jul 2007


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:30 am
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Stinger wrote:
Wasn't it the Bombers under Knights that deployed an all out attacking game first with a view to defence second? It didn't work.



iirc, that was a part of a three year plan to develop the team. one year was to focus on attack, the next defence, then in the third year pull the two elements together. the all out attacking game plan was not the end game in itself.

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PyreneesPie Pisces

PyreneesPie


Joined: 22 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:24 pm
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Geez, droversdog65 you are talking a lot of sense Smile

This has been a great thread to date with lots of insightful discussion. Thanks for starting it!
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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:40 pm
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It will be interesting to see if our forward transition and forward structures improve next year with banjo Lappin having been moved on.

Unsure at this stage as I would assume he was simply working within the constraints of the overall game plan and the personnel on the park.

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:00 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
It will be interesting to see if our forward transition and forward structures improve next year with banjo Lappin having been moved on.

Unsure at this stage as I would assume he was simply working within the constraints of the overall game plan and the personnel on the park.


Mainly the personnel I reckon. Wink
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:07 pm
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droversdog65 wrote:
Jack no need to take it quite so much to heart man, nor quite so literally. By using the term 'victim' I'm trying to highlight a reactive versus proactive mindset. In life people who are constantly in a reactionary posture are often victims or regard themselves as victims. Our playing style reflects a reactionary ethos in that we are focussed more on preventing damage than being creative.

It's this defensive first posture which I am deploring and saying that it is crippling our ability to be creative and generate our own scenarios.

Defense is fine and absolutely necessary but defense first, second and third and then think about attack is reactionary and self defeating. We have slipped too far down the scale and have lost our attacking flair - and more importantly attacking poise.


We'll have to agree to disagree. Thought we showed some fantastic attacking footy rounds 2-11 in 2014. Kids weren't able to sustain it for a full 4 quarters and it waned 12-23 as injuries took their toll but it's definitely there. Another preseason into some of the kids and a healthier list and I think we'll see plenty of offensive flair in 2015.
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:18 pm
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Let's all agree we need to kick more goals......I don't care how we kick them. Smile
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