The MYTHunderstood factors in TRUE forward line pressure.

[droversdog65]

Perhaps a better illustration for those struggling with my reasoning would be from the world of international cricket.

Take a Matty Hayden or Adam Gilchrist and compare them to a David Gower type.

Both will get you big runs in style but it's the totally aggressive style and attitude of a Matty or Adam that will give you the extra time to force a result more often.

It's all about attitude and intent here for me.

[yin-YANG]

I agree with the your main point drover… scoreboard pressure is the best 'forward' pressure.

For me, Goldy should play mostly down back this year. With Nick now retired we need a bit more experience in defence and Goldy has never threatened offensively when up forward.

A forward Line with the likes of Cloke, Reid, White/Witts, Elliot, Broomhead, Faz and Freeman is much more attacking and could deliver the scoreboard pressure required.

I am really keen to see Freeman play forward - particularly due to his pace - I think rather then defensively minded forwards like Goldy and Blair I would rather have some goal kickers with genuine pace. When backmen know that there are some pacy forwards about they rush their kicks and they feel the heat…

Of course the best teams have often shown that forwards need to defend well and backmen need to attack, however I would like to see guys with x-factor who can kick 2-3 goals a qtr now and then to really worry the opposition!

Vital for scoreboard pressure also is the ability of our mids to kick goals. It was a key component to our team in 2010 and 2011 - we can't rely on Cloke to kick bags - the mids need to see their role as more than just accumulators of possessions and ensure they go forward and kick goals! The good teams all have mids who do it - we lost Beams - one of our best goal kicking mids, so hopefully the likes of Greenwood and Varcoe can get in the mix along with our other mids…

[droversdog65]

y-Y I think a lot of the conversation going forward will need to take into account the immense loss in experience and X factor we have had to deal with over the last few years. If you factor in the absolutely insane amount and duration of injuries / illness we have had to key personel over the same period it's amazing we have been able to field any sort of a team at all - let alone one that only just missed out last year.

I think part of the problem we have is a lack of direction with setting up our forward line.

If you look at the players you mention all of Cloke/Reid/White/Witts and Elliott are predominantly marking forwards with only White having any true footspeed when the ball hits the turf.

We need to find a roadmap to go forward and select our vehicle carefully, Cloke appears to be a lynchpin - so long as he remains fit and focussed, I like Elliott as well, he is learning the crumbing caper and even if he never becomes a top crumber (very likely) he remains a serious threat as a high flying mid sized forward with good ground capabilities and should be perserved with up forward and not pushed into the centre.

That leaves us with 4 forward posts to be decided and in my veiw we need at least one further tall, with our wealth of backline talent finally coming online it should give us the freedom to release Reid forward so that would be my choice.

Then it would be a matter of mix and match to the occasion, Broomy, Faz and the likes of Swanny orbiting between the centre and forward line should provide enough variety and threat to stretch most backlines.

[neil]

Agree with all the above posts kicking goals is what forwards are supposed to do.
They also should chase and tackle and apply pressure when the opposition has the ball.
Our problem has been we only have Cloke and Elliot as forwards
Reid helps and needs to play forward
Hopefully Broomhead shows his potential
Small crumbers are a waste of time unless of absolute class then they should become mids

[droversdog65]

Greetings neil as regards to crumbers - I'm unsure of what you mean, there are so many definitions and examplars of crumbing it's difficult - for me at least - to come up with a role model that exemplifies crumbing.

Certainly anyone playing forward pocket needs to have a reasonable degree of crumbing ability as the ball usually ends up in this area of the ground with opposition pressure, meaning disputed posession - usually from a marking contest ensuing from a misdirected or off balance kick.

The very concept of a 'pure' crumber for me just doesn't apply to modern football, although the ability to crumb is a rare and valuable commodity.

[jackcass]

I agree with the premise of the OP, scoreboard pressure is the best defensive pressure, but I think in the post MM transition we've tried to make the best of the playing list Buck's inherited from MM. The Goldsack and Blairs of the team weren't recruited as "defensive forwards", it's just a role they can take on. Blair was one of the most productive mids in the TAC in his draft year, Goldsack was a mature age TAC mid with a hard edge, but neither are going to force Beams, Pendles, Ball, Swan et al out of the midfield consistently.

It should also be remembered that if you happen to have a Didak, Davis or Krakouer in your team then Blair as a defensive forward works better. We don't have that but hopefully a Broomhead or a Kennedy or DeGoey can fill that void as they develop as mids.

I still think most of our issues stem from the midfield. In 2010 & 2011 it was no coincidence that we dominated that area and reaped the rewards. The demise of Jolly and the decline/departure of others has hurt us. Recent recruiting should remedy this aspect, just a question of how long it will take.

[droversdog65]

With respect jackass I doubt anyone posting on a footy forum has the slightest idea regarding recruiting aims and imperatives, however I understand your point and truthfully am nuetral on it having no solid evidence one way or another your opinion is as good as mine or any other.

As for the midfield it certainly has declined somewhat, that being unavoidable considering the circumstances you have already outlined.

However my concerns reach deeper than mere personel or game plans and coaching is only tangential to the problem.

The crux - IMVHO - is a team and club consciousness that borders on victim like. To be clear with that we have tuned our entire strategy to reactive, defensive motifs rather than proactive, creative ones. We have become a club that stuff happens to us out on the field and we react to it, rather than driving circumstances we are driven before them.

Such behaviour is victim like.

Time to take control of circumstance again in the only way that means anything. Screw boundary line play, screw total focus on pressure acts - let's get on the front foot with big bodied, skilled players willing and eager to take the game on and forge the result off our own initiative.

Above all lets get those young men who demonstrate a desire to play for the guernsey and their team mates out there on the park and forge a brotherhood instead of a team.

Side by side we stick together isn't just a line from the most famous sporting club's song in Australia - it's part of our team's ethos and what we should be standing up for.

[Member 7167]

drover,

i agree with everything you have stated and certainly the energy levels required to play this type of football takes its toll in exhausting players. I also believe that exhausted players are more prone to injury. At the same time the swarm can work well and the final we won against Geelong in 2010 is a prime example. The swam was a good defense to their handball style of game but is very ineffective against Hawthorn with its quick and accurate kicks.

The interchange cap many speculated was aimed at Collingwood and made the swarm almost too difficult to sustain.

[Woods]

Thing with feeling like a victim is that it can become a very comfortable rut.

Two 'victims' that come to mind are Cloke and Swan. Both seem to have fallen into a pattern of self pity that helps them cope with the circumstances they find themselves in.

Swan's recent media commentary, whether tongue-in-cheek or not, says it loud and clear - he sits in solitude in his own room at the club; nobody speaks to him, all his mates have left, coaches keep him away from the newbies etc.

Cloke's victimhood is more self-evident on the field of play - always muttering and grumbling to himself in reaction to unpaid infringements.

[droversdog65]

Good points member I won't comment on the interchange cap motivation except to note that it was championed by an old fossil (Gollum) because of his longing for an older and simpler form of the game. All that third rate claptrap about studies is good enough for the unthinking but a little clear headed common sense thought is enough to dispel the simplistic theory.

Further along that course of thinking I have a gut feeling with no factual justification whatever that 'swarming' has a cumulative effect on both physique and psyche. Players appear to be ennervated after a few years of it, would love to have accurate figures.

Agreed also regarding Geelong being the focus of swarm play, they were a remarkably complete team, having been built up upon the most amazing run of father/son selections I believe ever witnessed.

Hawthorn are a horse of an entirely different breed altogether.

[droversdog65]

Woods agree about victim phsychology but not so much regarding your two cited examplars.

Firstly about Swanny - I wouldn't take anything he says about himself with anything less than a kilo of salt - let alone a grain. He has the most incredibly unconnected attitude to life in general and football in particular. And as a side note it's a remarkably effective gambit in deflecting the media and public spotlight.

As regards Cloke, he certainly displays displeasure with circumstances but when you consider that the AFL has changed rules that specifically allow full forwards to be monstered by multiple opponents with out risk I can certainly understand his displeasure.

I'm not saying I discount your opinion, but I'm far from convinced of it's total accuracy.

After living a lifetime as a Pies supporter I strive not to be victim oriented myself but its a remarkable double coincidence that immediately after we win a premiership the rules are changed to limit our dominence in one area ( interchange cap ) then that not proving totally effective the rules are changed in our one remaining area of dominance (contested marking).

Face it Woodsey . . we are the enemy, now and forever.

[skaman]

droversdog65 = breath of fresh air . Well written, knowledgable and insightful. Welcome to the board mate. Couldn't agree more with your comments re Cloke. Poor bastard. playing in the wrong era. certainly seems to be murdered by rules that appear to be designed to curb his influence. ( however, watching other games, seems less interpreted to other forwards?) maybe we are all biased, but watching games with neutral supporters, even they agree, Clokey gets a raw deal.

[droversdog65]

Hi skaman and thx yes all forwards get it a bit but Cloke gets crucified, match in and match out with no sign of it relenting.

It resembles much less a rule thing than an unofficial policy.

Would not be surprised to see Cloke being given a roving commision up the ground which gets him away from the stifling pressures and in fact opens our forward line up. Start him at centre half forward and let him use his big tank to run the bastards ragged whilst we go to him just enough to keep them interested the rest of the time we go elsewhere.

[datwhitey]

"Would not be surprised to see Cloke being given a roving commision up the ground which gets him away from the stifling pressures and in fact opens our forward line up. Start him at centre half forward and let him use his big tank to run the bastards ragged whilst we go to him just enough to keep them interested the rest of the time we go elsewhere."

While I agree with pretty much everything you've said, Drovers, this is one point I think is very important to the structure of our forward line. Cloke playing out of the square is not working, for reasons you have mentioned (he's being double / triple teamed, not getting a fair go from the umps, etc.). I have always thought Cloke was more suited to CHF than FF, and as you say, with his tank he can run the opposition ragged. And to be honest, he's more likely to kick accurately from a distance so I wouldn't think his goal return would reduce much at all.

Let's see what NB does with him next year....

[simon tonna]

The crux - IMVHO - is a team and club consciousness that borders on victim like. To be clear with that we have tuned our entire strategy to reactive, defensive motifs rather than proactive, creative ones. We have become a club that stuff happens to us out on the field and we react to it, rather than driving circumstances we are driven before them.

Such behaviour is victim like.

Time to take control of circumstance again in the only way that means anything. Screw boundary line play, screw total focus on pressure acts - let's get on the front foot with big bodied, skilled players willing and eager to take the game on and forge the result off our own initiative.



gday drover. please excuse my laziness ,re grammar and punctuation.
the intent was there my friend for all to see but with such a patched up relatively new side changing week to week the long season got the better of us and to avoid a flogging each week the defensive/post reactive game style is the only plan B we have. it makes for a frustrating and annoying state of affairs for all. due to the rule changes and the list you've mentioned its no wonder we are the victims of circumstance.
as a conservative thinker myself i don't see a problem with that game style, its just that we don't execute under pressure well enough to release the pressure we are put under. again victims of circumstance. its frustrating for all but the intent is there and when our skill set rises throughout the squad we will perhaps see the boys playing the game on their terms instead of struggling to gain the momentum from the opposition with the way we set up our zone.