Torture and the CIA
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte wrote: | | barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity. |
Have we really not made any progress on this topic in over 200 years?
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Beat me with the truth.
Don't torture me with lies! |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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The Terriosts do the same thing to there Hostages. So it’s just doing the Same as Each Other.
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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| David wrote: | | In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte wrote: | | barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity. |
Have we really not made any progress on this topic in over 200 years? |
It's ironic that someone who detests the military as much as you do would use a quote from a long dead general to further his arguement.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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That's a pretty silly post, OEP. Napoleon was an imperialist tyrant; obviously I'm no fan. The point is that even as far back as the late 1700s, one of the most powerful leaders in the world was condemning torture as a method. The fact that he was a brutal conquerer actually lends weight to the quote. If even he opposed torture on ethical and pragmatic principles, what does that say about the people who use (and endorse) such practices today, 216 years later?
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| OEP wrote: | | David wrote: | | In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte wrote: | | barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity. |
Have we really not made any progress on this topic in over 200 years? |
It's ironic that someone who detests the military as much as you do would use a quote from a long dead general to further his arguement. |
Not ironic at all, OEP. That's the whole point. Napoleon cared nothing for an extra thousand deaths and mutilations, and even less for human rights, but he well knew and was (as David shows) prepared to say just how useless torture is as an intelligence-gathering tactic. Even this most famous apostle of ruthless government power and of state "progress" over citizen's freedom finds torture of prisoners repugnant and counter-productive.
A very well-chosen quote indeed, David, which goes right to the heart of the matter.
Edit: typo
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Last edited by Tannin on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | That's a pretty silly post, OEP. Napoleon was an imperialist tyrant; obviously I'm no fan. The point is that even as far back as the late 1700s, one of the most powerful leaders in the world was condemning torture as a method. The fact that he was a brutal conquerer actually lends weight to the quote. If even he opposed torture on ethical and pragmatic principles, what does that say about the people who use (and endorse) such practices today, 216 years later? |
^ Well said, David. (We cross-posted just now.)
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| Tannin wrote: | | OEP wrote: | | David wrote: | | In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte wrote: | | barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity. |
Have we really not made any progress on this topic in over 200 years? |
It's ironic that someone who detests the military as much as you do would use a quote from a long dead general to further his arguement. |
Not ironic at all, OEP. That's the whole point. Napoleon cared nothing for an extra thousand deaths and mutilations, and even less for human rights, but he well knew and was (as David shows) prepared to say just how useless torture is as an intelligence-gathering tactic. Even this most famous apostle of ruthless government power and of state "progress" over citizen's freedom finds torture of prisoners repugnant and counter-productive.
A very well-chosen quote indeed, David, which goes right to the heart of the matter.
Edit: typo |
Oh what a load of bullshit. You said it yourself this was a man who cared little for the suffering of others, save for when it suited his needs, yet he calls torture "contrary to reason and humanity". This isn't the quote of someone who thinks torture was something that shouldn't be done because it wasn't the right thing to do, this is the quote of a hypocrite who thought torture wasn't the productive thing to do because the intelligence gathering results were poor.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Which leads to the question, what has changed in 200 years to prove him wrong?
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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this thread is now torture!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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OEP
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| David wrote: | | Which leads to the question, what has changed in 200 years to prove him wrong? |
A huge amount. The use of torture is no longer a wide spread tool for information gathering and those that due choose to use it are generally condemned for their actions ratheer. 200 years ago torture was widely considered a very useful tool for information extraction and most didn't give a damn as long as it wasn't them being tortured.
Plus we've develop some really cool knew torture techniques.
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| OEP wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | OEP wrote: | | David wrote: | | In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte wrote: | | barbarous custom of whipping men suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this method of interrogation, by putting men to the torture, is useless. The wretches say whatever comes into their heads and whatever they think one wants to believe. Consequently, the Commander-in-Chief forbids the use of a method which is contrary to reason and humanity. |
Have we really not made any progress on this topic in over 200 years? |
It's ironic that someone who detests the military as much as you do would use a quote from a long dead general to further his arguement. |
Not ironic at all, OEP. That's the whole point. Napoleon cared nothing for an extra thousand deaths and mutilations, and even less for human rights, but he well knew and was (as David shows) prepared to say just how useless torture is as an intelligence-gathering tactic. Even this most famous apostle of ruthless government power and of state "progress" over citizen's freedom finds torture of prisoners repugnant and counter-productive.
A very well-chosen quote indeed, David, which goes right to the heart of the matter.
Edit: typo |
Oh what a load of bullshit. You said it yourself this was a man who cared little for the suffering of others, save for when it suited his needs, yet he calls torture "contrary to reason and humanity". This isn't the quote of someone who thinks torture was something that shouldn't be done because it wasn't the right thing to do, this is the quote of a hypocrite who thought torture wasn't the productive thing to do because the intelligence gathering results were poor. |
Which was David's precise point in the first place. Well done for spotting it, and in the very same year it was posted too!
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| OEP wrote: | | David wrote: | | Which leads to the question, what has changed in 200 years to prove him wrong? |
A huge amount. The use of torture is no longer a wide spread tool for information gathering and those that due choose to use it are generally condemned for their actions ratheer. 200 years ago torture was widely considered a very useful tool for information extraction and most didn't give a damn as long as it wasn't them being tortured.
Plus we've develop some really cool knew torture techniques. |
Honestly, as terrible as the torture methods used by the CIA were, they have nothing on the cruelty perpetrated in Europe and elsewhere 300-400 years ago (not 200—torture was already being phased out as a common punishment by the 1700s). The wikipedia article detailing the different methods used throughout history is pretty stomach-turning.
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Last edited by David on Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:39 am; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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