Torture and the CIA
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Who said admitting it has and and is using torture as an instrument of foreign policy is? |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | I'm not sure what led you to that conclusion. Do I usually make negative comments about people of European descent? |
well since most aussies are of European descent, then yes!!
your so disdainful of anyone who isn't on the same weird wave length as you! or anyone with a few dollars in the bank, who works for a living and doesn't mind it, and anyone in a position of power who has the audacity to enjoy it
you may not call people names or come out and say it, but gees its dripping in your opinion of most things |
Pull your head in TP. That was uncalled for.
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | I'm not sure what led you to that conclusion. Do I usually make negative comments about people of European descent? |
well since most aussies are of European descent, then yes!!
your so disdainful of anyone who isn't on the same weird wave length as you! or anyone with a few dollars in the bank, who works for a living and doesn't mind it, and anyone in a position of power who has the audacity to enjoy it
you may not call people names or come out and say it, but gees its dripping in your opinion of most things |
Pull your head in TP. That was uncalled for. |
It's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it, just like your entitled to call people names when ever you feel like it as you so often like to, without being told to pull your head in.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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I agree, what is happening in Iraq (and all over the world) is criminal too!
My point is if we wish to occupy the moral high-ground we must act in a moral manor no matter what the provocation! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's already been established that this group are murderous fanatics (and don't forget that even many radical Islamic terrorist groups consider them extreme!), and Al Qaeda isn't much better. But repaying atrocity with atrocity doesn't help to fight such horrors; rather, it makes atrocity the norm, and inspires even more frightening extremism on both sides.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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I don't disagree with that. But I still wouldn't rule it out if it's the only way to get info from hard core nutcase terrorists. I don't like to agree with any kind of violence, but sometimes it's the only way. I take everything I read in the newspapers with a grain of salt. If it really was as wide spread as that article, then of course their should be an enquiry and court martialing. But I also see the other side. Bin laden and his kind are nut jobs, their followers fanatical lunatics, and probably more scared of what would happen to them at the hands of the Taliban etc, than what the yanks or anyone else (let's not forget many other countries, including Aussies, have been accused of excessive force over the years) could hand out.
No two wrongs don't make a right, I've heard that a million times from my husband, but being a mum, I also know, sometimes, it's the only way! (Taking a mobile or a hair straightener from a teenage girl is just so evil, but it works!)
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: |
It's already been established that this group are murderous fanatics (and don't forget that even many radical Islamic terrorist groups consider them extreme!), and Al Qaeda isn't much better. But repaying atrocity with atrocity doesn't help to fight such horrors; rather, it makes atrocity the norm, and inspires even more frightening extremism on both sides. |
Appeasing them doesn't work either as History has shown time and time again. |
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| 3.14159 wrote: | I agree, what is happening in Iraq (and all over the world) is criminal too!
My point is if we wish to occupy the moral high-ground we must act in a moral manor no matter what the provocation! |
Or the end result? What if that high ground puts a million people underground?
We hear of all the terrorist attacks that work, do we really hear about all the foiled ones?
What if the attacks on Darwin could have been avoided by a little rough stuff on a japanese soldier?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| 1061 wrote: | [quote="David"][quote="think positive"][quote="3.14159"]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/feb/08/torture-george-bush
Torture is illegal (see link).
The US prosecuted the Japanese and Germans after the second world war for using these same methods .
It is admitting it has and and is still using torture as an instrument of foreign policy.
The Islamic world will never believe we have any moral )or Spiritual) superiority while we continue in this barbarous manner!
The *&^%$% abuse isn't personal Jo, it's criminal.[/quote]
Yeah your right
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2872884/Our-faith-condones-raping-underage-slaves-ISIS-publishes-shocking-guidebook-telling-fighters-buy-sell-abuse-captured-women.html?ito=social-facebook[/quote]
It's already been established that this group are murderous fanatics (and don't forget that even many radical Islamic terrorist groups consider them extreme!), and Al Qaeda isn't much better. But repaying atrocity with atrocity doesn't help to fight such horrors; rather, it makes atrocity the norm, and inspires even more frightening extremism on both sides.[/quote]
Appeasing them doesn't work either as History has shown time and time again. |
Oh a web page. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: | I agree, what is happening in Iraq (and all over the world) is criminal too!
My point is if we wish to occupy the moral high-ground we must act in a moral manor no matter what the provocation! |
Or the end result? What if that high ground puts a million people underground?
We hear of all the terrorist attacks that work, do we really hear about all the foiled ones?
What if the attacks on Darwin could have been avoided by a little rough stuff on a japanese soldier? |
Well, firstly, as a few posters have already pointed out, torture has been shown to produce unreliable information anyway (people being tortured will tend to say whatever they think their captors want them to say, whether it's true or not). But I don't want to dodge the central ethical question there: if torture did work, would it be ethical to use it in extreme situations where lives are at risk?
I don't believe so. There's a reason why these actions were hidden from the American public. There's a reason why it was done at Guantanamo Bay or overseas, beyond US jurisdiction. Deep down, people know it's wrong, that it breaks a contract of how human beings should be treated.
There's a level of self-interest here, too: by limiting what a government or law enforcement agency can do to the worst criminals, or in the most apparently urgent situations, we protect ourselves; for, if an innocent person can end up in a cell being brutalised, then we could. Or a family member could. Or someone like us could. And when you know that—that it's a resort that governments can use—then you're no longer free; you're living in a terrorist regime.
If you (or anyone else here) get a spare half hour, I encourage you to read through this. It provides a history of torture in human countries and an explanation of why civilised countries have slowly moved away from such practices.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#History
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Civilised countries have certainly moved away from torture, but when your adversary is not only willing to use it but advocates for it's use purely for shits and giggles to make a point, you can choose to take the moral high ground or choose to let your adversary know that you can play their game too.
I'm not above taking option 2.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| think positive wrote: |
What if the attacks on Darwin could have been avoided by a little rough stuff on a japanese soldier? |
Our Aussie Diggers handed the japanese soldiers more than just a" little rough stuff"!
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | think positive wrote: |
What if the attacks on Darwin could have been avoided by a little rough stuff on a japanese soldier? |
Our Aussie Diggers handed the japanese soldiers more than just a" little rough stuff"!
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AFTER the fact
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Hey David, you wanted to know where the Islamic terrorists in Australia were?
Turn the news on
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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