Torture and the CIA
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Purely only my opinion but I really don't care about international law, and i only care about domestic laws where I might suffer a punitive effect for breaching them.
I do lean more to "the means justifies the ends" than toward being constrained by "laws", particularly when in a situation where the adversary isn't constrained by the same "laws".
Equal playing field.
My only insistence would be that any torture was suitably monitored and was justified on a basis of information gathering and not by any other more base motives like retribution.
I'm sure plenty of people disagree with me, that's cool. IMO this isn't a case where there is a right or wrong answer, people will have differing opinions.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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For all the thousands of detainees and held (most with-out charge) no creditable attack was stopped or useful information gleaned.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/cia-torture-report-paints-picture-of-agency-out-of-control-20141210-123qu0.html
| wrote: | According to the report Abu Zubaydah, who had already agreed to co-operation, was subjected to enhanced interrogation nearly 24 hours a day for 19 days after being held in complete isolation for 47 days.
During his interrogation a collar made from a towel was used to slam his head into walls, he was kept in stress positions and or in a coffin-shaped box and waterboarded regularly as medical staff stood by to keep him alive. Waterboarding involves pouring water over a cloth covering a restrained victim's face, causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning.
A medical officer wrote to superiors in an email entitled "And so it begins": "The sessions accelerated rapidly progressing quickly to the waterboard after large box, walling, and small box periods. [Abu Zubaydah] seems very resistant to the waterboard. Longest time with the cloth over his face so far has been 17 seconds. This is sure to increase shortly. NO useful information so far ... He did vomit a couple of times during the waterboard with some beans and rice. It's been 10 hours since he ate so this is surprising and disturbing. We plan to only feed Ensure [a nutritional supplement] for a while now. I'm head[ing] back for another waterboard session." |
There is no case for Government torture!
It is inhuman, in-effective and hypocracy of the highest order.
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street
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| stui magpie wrote: | Purely only my opinion but I really don't care about international law, and i only care about domestic laws where I might suffer a punitive effect for breaching them.
I do lean more to "the means justifies the ends" than toward being constrained by "laws", particularly when in a situation where the adversary isn't constrained by the same "laws".
Equal playing field.
My only insistence would be that any torture was suitably monitored and was justified on a basis of information gathering and not by any other more base motives like retribution.
I'm sure plenty of people disagree with me, that's cool. IMO this isn't a case
where there is a right or wrong answer, people will have differing opinions. |
I don't think our laws constrain you. I think our laws protect you.
I would hate for you to be arrested/detained/tortured because someone thinks their means justifies your grisly end.
But if your torture was as you state, "suitably monitored", you may not end up being too badly affected. I sure hope so, as I imagine being tortured may have life long deleterious effects on most people. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Would I like to be on the other end of the deal and be the one tortured? Hell no, not something I'd personally enjoy a lot.
Just because I don't want it happening to me doesn't mean it shouldn't happen period.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | So it goes for torture, except that I'm not sure I can think of any instance where torture would be justified. Even in Wokko's example, it requires a framework within which torture is seen as an appropriate fallback option when other attempts at extracting information have failed. I don't think I could support such a paradigm.
To return to your hypothetical, I completely oppose vigilantism and I would hope that, in such a situation, I would seek police assistance rather than trying to take matters into my own hands (which, I imagine, tends to backfire more often than not anyway). So, no, I do not have fantasies about being Liam Neeson. |
yeah na, if inflicting pain on a terrorist stops innocents being hurt, killed, maimed, whatever, fuckem. you cant do the time, don't do the crime.
(liam Neeson?? sheesh you gotta think more hard core than that!!)
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Would I like to be on the other end of the deal and be the one tortured? Hell no, not something I'd personally enjoy a lot.
Just because I don't want it happening to me doesn't mean it shouldn't happen period. |
so no bondage gear from santa?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Would I like to be on the other end of the deal and be the one tortured? Hell no, not something I'd personally enjoy a lot.
Just because I don't want it happening to me doesn't mean it shouldn't happen period. |
so no bondage gear from santa? |
Not unless Mrs Claus is up for it. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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hahahahahaha
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | So it goes for torture, except that I'm not sure I can think of any instance where torture would be justified. Even in Wokko's example, it requires a framework within which torture is seen as an appropriate fallback option when other attempts at extracting information have failed. I don't think I could support such a paradigm.
To return to your hypothetical, I completely oppose vigilantism and I would hope that, in such a situation, I would seek police assistance rather than trying to take matters into my own hands (which, I imagine, tends to backfire more often than not anyway). So, no, I do not have fantasies about being Liam Neeson. |
yeah na, if inflicting pain on a terrorist stops innocents being hurt, killed, maimed, whatever, fuckem. you cant do the time, don't do the crime.
(liam Neeson?? sheesh you gotta think more hard core than that!!) |
Did you see the bit where about 20% of detainees were released without charge? That suggests that innocents were being hurt, killed, maimed, etc. And because there were no lawyers, no courts, no appeal mechanisms, they had no way of being able to plead their innocence. Is that the kind of justice you think a society like ours should endorse?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | So it goes for torture, except that I'm not sure I can think of any instance where torture would be justified. Even in Wokko's example, it requires a framework within which torture is seen as an appropriate fallback option when other attempts at extracting information have failed. I don't think I could support such a paradigm.
To return to your hypothetical, I completely oppose vigilantism and I would hope that, in such a situation, I would seek police assistance rather than trying to take matters into my own hands (which, I imagine, tends to backfire more often than not anyway). So, no, I do not have fantasies about being Liam Neeson. |
yeah na, if inflicting pain on a terrorist stops innocents being hurt, killed, maimed, whatever, fuckem. you cant do the time, don't do the crime.
(liam Neeson?? sheesh you gotta think more hard core than that!!) |
Did you see the bit where about 20% of detainees were released without charge? That suggests that innocents were being hurt, killed, maimed, etc. And because there were no lawyers, no courts, no appeal mechanisms, they had no way of being able to plead their innocence. Is that the kind of justice you think a society like ours should endorse? |
And if one of those 20% was your daughter, TP? That's the real test. It's like people who support wars they know they'll never fight.
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Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: |
yeah na, if inflicting pain on a terrorist stops innocents being hurt, killed, maimed, whatever, fuckem. you cant do the time, don't do the crime. |
These torture victims were NOT criminals, TP. They were not tried, they were not convicted by a court, they had no opportunity to defend themselves, no lawyer to represent them, they were jailed without trial and tortured illegally. We are supposed to be better than they are. That's why we fight them: to preserve and defend freedom and liberty. By stooping to these inhuman methods, we throw away our claim to be in the right.
And none of the torture produced any useful information.
Worse, we just gave ISIS a huge free kick: many more people around the world will support them because of this.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Sheesh, ok just the 80% who were naughty!
No what I meant was, the guilty ones, you know like in 24, if that's the only way to get the info.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ 24 is pro-torture, rah-rah-America propaganda, so it figures that it would paint a more appealing picture of the practice. TV shows like that are all about alpha males getting frustrated by inept bureaucracy and legal impediments and enacting justice in their own (more effective) way. I find that message terrifying, but I think their popularity helps explain some of the passive acceptance of these atrocities in their society and ours.
http://time.com/100850/24-amnesty-international-torture/
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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It's a stupid argument just being part of it makes me feel even stupider than I normally do!
I'm out. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: | Sheesh, ok just the 80% who were naughty!
No what I meant was, the guilty ones, you know like in 24, if that's the only way to get the info. |
None of them were found guilty by a court, they were tortured without trial or any opportunity to speak in their own dfenc.
No useful info was obtained.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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