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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons. |
evil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
not
evil
noun
1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
May seem a bit of a quibble, but I'm not talking Evil as a manifestation of demonic entities but as a state of being a profoundly immoral and wicked person. Some people are just bad people. There is nothing redeeming about them, they are simply well, evil.
Why does the possibility of bad people that are beyond redemption and with no excuse for their behaviour make you so uncomfortable?
Also, why ignore everything else I've written and cherry pick a word that so obviously doesn't mean some malevolent force in the context I used it? |
Your re-definition"profoundly immoral and wicked"is still completely nonsensical and unscientific. And this is not just a semantic quibble; it cuts to the very core of the discussion. Responses to criminal behaviour vary considerably depending on your views of human nature. For me, there are just people, and some need more help than others to function successfully in society. End of story.
Anyway, I'll just put this here for people to read:
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/nov/24/mother-charged-over-baby-in-drain-deserves-compassion
I'll admit that some of the discourse on this issue does seem to overlook the experience and personhood of the victimwould there be so much compassion if the child had been, say, five years older? But that gets us into very uncomfortable territory, and while some philosophers like Peter Singer want us to go there, I have a feeling that the rest of society would prefer to keep talking around it.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Probably more compassion, 5 years of suffering what?
Point is David, she had choices, she could have just left the baby at the hospital. Her choice was despicable.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I'm sure she would like to hear about that. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| HAL wrote: | | I'm sure she would like to hear about that. |
I'm sure she will
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons. |
evil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
not
evil
noun
1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
May seem a bit of a quibble, but I'm not talking Evil as a manifestation of demonic entities but as a state of being a profoundly immoral and wicked person. Some people are just bad people. There is nothing redeeming about them, they are simply well, evil.
Why does the possibility of bad people that are beyond redemption and with no excuse for their behaviour make you so uncomfortable?
Also, why ignore everything else I've written and cherry pick a word that so obviously doesn't mean some malevolent force in the context I used it? |
I've had a senior mental health clinician make a similar observation to me once about a person who was basically offloaded into an inpatient unit by the Police and then broke lots of stuff.
The comment was a pretty simple summation of where this person sat mentally, "He's not mad, just bad"
Not everything needs to be over analysed, sometimes a turd is just a turd and all you find down the rabbit hole are rabbits. |
Sounds like a kid who lived in the naughty corner, rather than getting a smack on the bum. Lack of discipline as a kid, teaches lack of respect for anyone else and thier property. Too many spoilt brats around
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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None of us know what occurred apart from a mother trying to kill her baby.
None of us know what her mental state was at the time.
The ignorant use of terms like Wokko was using such as if she 's just using depression as an excuse, it makes him sick (yet another example of Wokko's attitude to women)...is not useful to apply to this person's situation.
Anyone's experience of depression (& there are many forms) is different.
There are many forms of depression if she had that. These include an agitated depression, psychotic depression, depression with psychotic features, amongst others.
None of us know if she is (in the simplistic use of the terms) bad or mad as Stui was saying: either or both of those
None of us know if she had say a psychotic depression where her will or choice was not free
None of us know if she was hearing command homicidal ideations as a result of post partum psychosis - more common than you might realise.
None of us know if she was perfectly sane & was utterly responsible for her actions.
None of us know if this was cultural / familial etc
This needs time to explore all of the evidence & she needs a longitudinal mental state examination & not simply a cross sectional assessment to shed light not perpetuate myths & not reflect prejudices
Having said that, hang her & hang her high.
Now, that Lindy Chamberlain was guilty I tell you. I knew straight away.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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No matter what her state of mind was she had the baby in a hospital if her state of mind was questionable they would have picked it up!
She had choices...... |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Well, it's pretty evident they didn't. Perhaps they should have.
I have to say, we were very lucky to be able to stay for five days at the hospital after the birth (and that I was allowed to stay each night to help out). Kicking mothers out 48 hours afterwards is way too soon. Perhaps if it was standard policy to keep mothers in for up to a week, psychological issues would be more noticeable and situations like this could be prevented.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| 1061 wrote: | No matter what her state of mind was she had the baby in a hospital if her state of mind was questionable they would have picked it up!
She had choices...... |
With respect "no".
It can be held together as well. I've seen quite psychotic people guard their mental state quite well. Sometimes it's postpartum psychosis or psychotic depression that develops after the event.
Neither of us know at this time.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | ^ Well, it's pretty evident they didn't. Perhaps they should have.
I have to say, we were very lucky to be able to stay for five days at the hospital after the birth (and that I was allowed to stay each night to help out). Kicking mothers out 48 hours afterwards is way too soon. Perhaps if it was standard policy to keep mothers in for up to a week, psychological issues would be more noticeable and situations like this could be prevented. |
Our first was born in a birthing center at Monash Medical Centre where we had our own room. Stayed 24 hours, no doctors but they were available if needed
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Shouldn't we just treat all parents as suspect, take the children away from them to be reared by well-meaning bureaucrats and have them returned to their families (only if the families are by then thought fit) when they're about, say, 40? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Now you're talking. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: |
The ignorant use of terms like Wokko was using such as if she 's just using depression as an excuse, it makes him sick (yet another example of Wokko's attitude to women)...is not useful to apply to this person's situation. |
I said how do you STOP someone using depression as an easy out when there are hordes of feminist idiots handing the excuse to murderers on a platter. I wonder if a man suffering depression/psychosis/mental illness would get even a mention of sympathy or understanding? Where were all these ridiculous excuses when that guy spear gunned his kids? Or the guy who drove them into a lake? Or the guy who threw his kid off the bridge? I didn't hear (and quite rightly) any mention of "Oh, maybe they're mentally ill/suffering a psychotic episode/depressed. Because it's all a bullshit smokescreen to protect women who murder their newborn babies.
Also, I'll put this nicely even though you don't deserve it, how about you stop the bullshit personal attacks against me that apart from being wholly inaccurate and unnecessary do no more than diminish you and your argument. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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And I don't get that. I'd like to see that bastard hung drawn and quartered for what he put those kids through. Drowning is apparently a horrible horrible way to die, and drowned by your own father.
This woman dropped her son down a drain. Down a drain. By the sound of it where she thought he would not be found. You have a new born son, do you not feel a twinge at the thought of it? She had a choice. She could have left him some where safe, some where anonymous. Some where, where he would not suffer and awful, lonely death.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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