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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | A woman who kills her child can just say "I have post natal depression, feel sorry for me and not the child I murdered" and they, if not get away with it then get off very, very lightly. They also have hordes of supporters backing them up and making sure they get off. |
Perhaps this is a bit simplistic, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would do something like this unless they were not in their right mind. |
Careful with that line of thinking. The same probably goes very every mass murderer, serial-killer and terrorist that ever committed an atrocity, doesn't it? We find it difficult to imagine how any of them could be sane and do the awful things they do. |
I was curious about your views on this, and the views within the profession generally.
IMO the odds of David being right are so high bets should no longer be taken on this anymore.
We're about to be hit by a wall of neurobiological evidence showing just how many disabled people have been treated as sane and tortured for being so. In 20 years we'll be issuing public apologies for the horror of having taken part in the equivalent of the Medieval burning at the stake of schizophrenics for channeling the Devil.
In fact, I'm being euphemistic here; the data is already in but no one can cope with it yet. But it's only going to strengthen until society builds up new conceptions to cope with it, after which past assumptions on these things will be steamrolled.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | A woman who kills her child can just say "I have post natal depression, feel sorry for me and not the child I murdered" and they, if not get away with it then get off very, very lightly. They also have hordes of supporters backing them up and making sure they get off. |
Perhaps this is a bit simplistic, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would do something like this unless they were not in their right mind. |
Careful with that line of thinking. The same probably goes very every mass murderer, serial-killer and terrorist that ever committed an atrocity, doesn't it? We find it difficult to imagine how any of them could be sane and do the awful things they do. |
Yes, and I'd probably extend them the same line of reasoning.
Like PTID—and, it seems, a growing number of neuroscientists—I find it hard to believe that serious crimes could be committed without an underlying dysfunction of some kind. That may not necessarily be mental illness per se—though when it comes to serial killers, it almost certainly is—but should be seen as something that can be dealt with in a therapeutic setting (and, more importantly, something that is preventable).
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: |
Yes, and I'd probably extend them the same line of reasoning.
Like PTID—and, it seems, a growing number of neuroscientists—I find it hard to believe that serious crimes could be committed without an underlying dysfunction of some kind. That may not necessarily be mental illness per se—though when it comes to serial killers, it almost certainly is—but should be seen as something that can be dealt with in a therapeutic setting (and, more importantly, something that is preventable). |
How then does one differentiate between the insane and the intelligent faker who would rather spend some time in a psych ward than a maximum security prison?
"Complete madness" was first established as a defense to criminal charges by the common-law courts in late-thirteenth-century England. By the eighteenth century, the complete madness definition had evolved into the "wild beast" test. Under that test, the insanity defense was available to a person who was "totally deprived of his understanding and memory so as not to know what he [was] doing, no more than an infant, a brute, or a wild beast" (Feigl 1995, 161).
If someone knows what they're doing is wrong, and do it anyway, they're not insane no matter how £$%$ed in the head they are. What you David and PTID seem to be advocating is complete moral relativism, where anything that deviates from acceptable behaviour is classified as a mental illness. Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil.
Additionally, there is a danger that any socially deviant behaviour could be labelled as mental illness. This was done in the former Soviet Union where anyone who expressed thoughts against the State were labelled and sent for treatment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | A woman who kills her child can just say "I have post natal depression, feel sorry for me and not the child I murdered" and they, if not get away with it then get off very, very lightly. They also have hordes of supporters backing them up and making sure they get off. |
Perhaps this is a bit simplistic, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would do something like this unless they were not in their right mind. |
Careful with that line of thinking. The same probably goes very every mass murderer, serial-killer and terrorist that ever committed an atrocity, doesn't it? We find it difficult to imagine how any of them could be sane and do the awful things they do. |
I was curious about your views on this, and the views within the profession generally.
IMO the odds of David being right are so high bets should no longer be taken on this anymore.
We're about to be hit by a wall of neurobiological evidence showing just how many disabled people have been treated as sane and tortured for being so. In 20 years we'll be issuing public apologies for the horror of having taken part in the equivalent of the Medieval burning at the stake of schizophrenics for channeling the Devil.
In fact, I'm being euphemistic here; the data is already in but no one can cope with it yet. But it's only going to strengthen until society builds up new conceptions to cope with it, after which past assumptions on these things will be steamrolled. |
I have never acted in a criminal proceeding and have no "professional" view about it at all. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| I'm sorry if this woman is classed as insane then lock her up in a padded cell because she will not be able to function normally in any type of day to day existence in or out of Jail. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: |
Yes, and I'd probably extend them the same line of reasoning.
Like PTID—and, it seems, a growing number of neuroscientists—I find it hard to believe that serious crimes could be committed without an underlying dysfunction of some kind. That may not necessarily be mental illness per se—though when it comes to serial killers, it almost certainly is—but should be seen as something that can be dealt with in a therapeutic setting (and, more importantly, something that is preventable). |
How then does one differentiate between the insane and the intelligent faker who would rather spend some time in a psych ward than a maximum security prison?
"Complete madness" was first established as a defense to criminal charges by the common-law courts in late-thirteenth-century England. By the eighteenth century, the complete madness definition had evolved into the "wild beast" test. Under that test, the insanity defense was available to a person who was "totally deprived of his understanding and memory so as not to know what he [was] doing, no more than an infant, a brute, or a wild beast" (Feigl 1995, 161).
If someone knows what they're doing is wrong, and do it anyway, they're not insane no matter how £$%$ed in the head they are. What you David and PTID seem to be advocating is complete moral relativism, where anything that deviates from acceptable behaviour is classified as a mental illness. Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil.
Additionally, there is a danger that any socially deviant behaviour could be labelled as mental illness. This was done in the former Soviet Union where anyone who expressed thoughts against the State were labelled and sent for treatment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union |
Yes, but you're working backwards from fear there. Once the dam wall breaks and you know these things to be true, you will soon work out new rationales for managing such questions. Startling, to be sure, but it's reminisce of our forebears thinking that a heliocentric world view would send heaven and earth into a tail spin. And we're already well into the cognitive biological revolution, incidentally!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 1061 wrote: | | I'm sorry if this woman is classed as insane then lock her up in a padded cell because she will not be able to function normally in any type of day to day existence in or out of Jail. |
You don't know that. If it is a case of post-partum psychosis, then it may be temporary and manageable.
Whether the child should ever be returned to her care is a different question.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons. |
evil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
not
evil
noun
1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
May seem a bit of a quibble, but I'm not talking Evil as a manifestation of demonic entities but as a state of being a profoundly immoral and wicked person. Some people are just bad people. There is nothing redeeming about them, they are simply well, evil.
Why does the possibility of bad people that are beyond redemption and with no excuse for their behaviour make you so uncomfortable?
Also, why ignore everything else I've written and cherry pick a word that so obviously doesn't mean some malevolent force in the context I used it? |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | I'm sorry if this woman is classed as insane then lock her up in a padded cell because she will not be able to function normally in any type of day to day existence in or out of Jail. |
You don't know that. If it is a case of post-partum psychosis, then it may be temporary and manageable.
Whether the child should ever be returned to her care is a different question. |
You do realise that even taking that child away from her would not stop her from doing the exact same thing again (getting pregnant and killing her child).
Someone who has murdered their own child should never be able to have another one, even if you want to take your possibility of temporary insanity then how can we stop them from 'suffering' a relapse the next time they give birth? |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons. |
evil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
not
evil
noun
1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
May seem a bit of a quibble, but I'm not talking Evil as a manifestation of demonic entities but as a state of being a profoundly immoral and wicked person. Some people are just bad people. There is nothing redeeming about them, they are simply well, evil.
Why does the possibility of bad people that are beyond redemption and with no excuse for their behaviour make you so uncomfortable?
Also, why ignore everything else I've written and cherry pick a word that so obviously doesn't mean some malevolent force in the context I used it? |
That's just being silly. The only thing uncomfortable with anything you just said is that there's no evidence for any of it existing! You can't just throw folk metaphors around and think that qualifies as science. Next you'll be praying for us because the day of judgement is nigh!
And I should've mentioned in regard to your comment about psychiatry going awry in the past that cognitive neuroscience is not psychiatry in the slightest sense you're imagining. It's plain old biology, in the same sense that cardiology or haematology are plain old biology. Comparing new techniques for identifying, say, damage to the frontal cortex with Soviet psychiatry is the equivalent of comparing chemistry to alchemy!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons. |
evil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
not
evil
noun
1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
May seem a bit of a quibble, but I'm not talking Evil as a manifestation of demonic entities but as a state of being a profoundly immoral and wicked person. Some people are just bad people. There is nothing redeeming about them, they are simply well, evil.
Why does the possibility of bad people that are beyond redemption and with no excuse for their behaviour make you so uncomfortable?
Also, why ignore everything else I've written and cherry pick a word that so obviously doesn't mean some malevolent force in the context I used it? |
Because we all lack free will.
I disagree, some "people" Geoffrey Dahmer, Julian knight, spoilt little boys, who are just plain evil.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Sometimes you just have to accept that otherwise competent, intelligent people are $£$%^%%$ evil. |
Whether you like it or not, that's an anti-scientific claim. "Evil" is not a condition that actually exists beyond the realm of primitive superstition and tabloid headlines. You may as well say that they're possessed by demons. |
evil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and wicked.
not
evil
noun
1. profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.
May seem a bit of a quibble, but I'm not talking Evil as a manifestation of demonic entities but as a state of being a profoundly immoral and wicked person. Some people are just bad people. There is nothing redeeming about them, they are simply well, evil.
Why does the possibility of bad people that are beyond redemption and with no excuse for their behaviour make you so uncomfortable?
Also, why ignore everything else I've written and cherry pick a word that so obviously doesn't mean some malevolent force in the context I used it? |
I've had a senior mental health clinician make a similar observation to me once about a person who was basically offloaded into an inpatient unit by the Police and then broke lots of stuff.
The comment was a pretty simple summation of where this person sat mentally, "He's not mad, just bad"
Not everything needs to be over analysed, sometimes a turd is just a turd and all you find down the rabbit hole are rabbits. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^There are plenty of areas like that in life, but a lot of this really is now plain vanilla biology, not "let's give up and have a beer" territory.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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