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The short and tall of our midfielders

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Neil Appleby Taurus



Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:03 am
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Mossi wrote:
The element that I am worried about is the tough guys. Having lost Leigh Brown from the 2010 side and now Beams Maxy and Ball we are short of a few hard and tough souls. Hopefully Adams Levi Witts Grundy and some one new step up in those roles

You're hoping Witts is going to be one of our tough guys? The guy is a marshmallow without an ounce of mongrel. He may turn out to be a champ but an enforcer he will never be.

This argument about midfielders has been going on for over 12 months now and I agree, it started with some analyst (David King?) suggesting Freo had the template. Collingwood recruited a big-bodied mid with pace last year (Freeman) but he couldn't get right. It recruited big-bodied mids with height and skill (Sharenberg and Marsh) but they too haven't had their chance. Best laid plans. This year we have added grunt (Greenwood) and size (Crisp) and now we need a ready-made, polished, big-bodied mid from the draft.

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:44 am
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woftam wrote:
jackcass wrote:
Has been a little over dramatised but you get a team like Freo running Mundy (192), Fyfe (190) and Barlow (189) through their midfield and everyone thinks that is what is needed.

I'm personally less concerned about their height than I am about their capacity to get and use the footy. As you've said we already have Pendles and Seedsman, and we've got Marsh (193), Karnezis (191), Scharenberg (191), and Crisp (190) who are yet to debut in a Pies jumper but they're players who could all rotate through the midfield at times.


Fyfe is a gun. Mundy & Barlow are good but they aren't top shelf like an Ablett, Pendlebury etc. I'm not concerned about our height either. Some extra pace would be nice though. Wink


Yep, pace would be very handy, something we've lacked. As good as Pendles is, and Sidebottom, together with Beams, Ball, Krakouer, Didak, Macaffer etc was very one paced. Broomhead, Kennedy, Varcoe, maybe even Williams and Sinclair rotating through the midfield would help.
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:46 am
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stui magpie wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Say what you like, but the reality is that size and weight does matter. If you analyse every premiership team over the last 30 you will see a good mixture of height and weight, including our premiership teams of 2010 and 1990.
The teams we fielded last year didn't have that mixture of height and weight and hence were easy fodder for the taller teams such as Hawthorn and Fremantle. We corrected our list structure in the draft of last year and we will start to see the results of that in 2015.


You need balance or a point of difference.

Having a plod squad of 6'4" crash and bash midfielders is no good if they get run down and run away from.

Having a fleet of skinny little blokes who can run like the Flash is no good if there's no one to get the ball to them and they get mangled in the clinches.

Picking one element out of top sides that we lack and saying that would make the difference doesn't work, it's all the elements working together that turn the raw ingredients into the feast.


Yep, this!
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:48 am
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dillo_09 wrote:
woftam wrote:
jackcass wrote:
Has been a little over dramatised but you get a team like Freo running Mundy (192), Fyfe (190) and Barlow (189) through their midfield and everyone thinks that is what is needed.

I'm personally less concerned about their height than I am about their capacity to get and use the footy. As you've said we already have Pendles and Seedsman, and we've got Marsh (193), Karnezis (191), Scharenberg (191), and Crisp (190) who are yet to debut in a Pies jumper but they're players who could all rotate through the midfield at times.


Fyfe is a gun. Mundy & Barlow are good but they aren't top shelf like an Ablett, Pendlebury etc. I'm not concerned about our height either. Some extra pace would be nice though. Wink


Extra pace isn't necessary. You can move the ball fast without being a fast runner - skills are needed more.

A combination of both would be best, but quick hand and foot skills will always beat a fast runner.


Pace and skill aren't mutually exclusive. Hopefully Broomhead and Kennedy blossom in 2015 because they could potentially bring elements of both.
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:25 pm
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Neil Appleby wrote:
Mossi wrote:
The element that I am worried about is the tough guys. Having lost Leigh Brown from the 2010 side and now Beams Maxy and Ball we are short of a few hard and tough souls. Hopefully Adams Levi Witts Grundy and some one new step up in those roles

You're hoping Witts is going to be one of our tough guys? The guy is a marshmallow without an ounce of mongrel. He may turn out to be a champ but an enforcer he will never be.



WTF? Have you ever seen this guy play live? Shocked Rolling Eyes
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Az 



Joined: 25 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:54 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Neil Appleby wrote:
Mossi wrote:
The element that I am worried about is the tough guys. Having lost Leigh Brown from the 2010 side and now Beams Maxy and Ball we are short of a few hard and tough souls. Hopefully Adams Levi Witts Grundy and some one new step up in those roles

You're hoping Witts is going to be one of our tough guys? The guy is a marshmallow without an ounce of mongrel. He may turn out to be a champ but an enforcer he will never be.



WTF? Have you ever seen this guy play live? Shocked Rolling Eyes


No kidding. The big fella is always laying tackles and trying to get the hard ball. Way off the pace there Neil
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E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:29 am
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Az wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Neil Appleby wrote:
Mossi wrote:
The element that I am worried about is the tough guys. Having lost Leigh Brown from the 2010 side and now Beams Maxy and Ball we are short of a few hard and tough souls. Hopefully Adams Levi Witts Grundy and some one new step up in those roles

You're hoping Witts is going to be one of our tough guys? The guy is a marshmallow without an ounce of mongrel. He may turn out to be a champ but an enforcer he will never be.



WTF? Have you ever seen this guy play live? Shocked Rolling Eyes


No kidding. The big fella is always laying tackles and trying to get the hard ball. Way off the pace there Neil


i think Neil is right in the sense that aggro is not Witts' natural thing (as it clearly is for Grundy by way of comparison). In fact, I remember Nathan buckley tearing Witts a new one during a game in which he didnt impose himself strongly enough on a contest! Agression can be taught and witts showed improvement in that regard after the spray.

he will be a monstrous unit and if he can be taught to use that aggressively in the contest, he can be that guy.

so in a lot of ways you are both right here.

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didick 

didick


Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:00 am
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E wrote:
Az wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Neil Appleby wrote:
Mossi wrote:
The element that I am worried about is the tough guys. Having lost Leigh Brown from the 2010 side and now Beams Maxy and Ball we are short of a few hard and tough souls. Hopefully Adams Levi Witts Grundy and some one new step up in those roles

You're hoping Witts is going to be one of our tough guys? The guy is a marshmallow without an ounce of mongrel. He may turn out to be a champ but an enforcer he will never be.



WTF? Have you ever seen this guy play live? Shocked Rolling Eyes


No kidding. The big fella is always laying tackles and trying to get the hard ball. Way off the pace there Neil


i think Neil is right in the sense that aggro is not Witts' natural thing (as it clearly is for Grundy by way of comparison). In fact, I remember Nathan buckley tearing Witts a new one during a game in which he didnt impose himself strongly enough on a contest! Agression can be taught and witts showed improvement in that regard after the spray.

he will be a monstrous unit and if he can be taught to use that aggressively in the contest, he can be that guy.

so in a lot of ways you are both right here.


He's a young fella still learning the game, playing in front of large crowds (or so they should have been last year except for the AFL's scheduling), against typically older, much more experienced opposition. Give him time to get comfortable, get some confidence, and then the aggression will come.

Grundy has more natural aggressive instincts, to his detriment in some ways until he learns the game more. But once Wittsy gets more experience and confidence I expect the aggression to come. The odd blast from Bucks won't hurt too.

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inxs88 



Joined: 17 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:08 pm
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Grundy has got a bit of James Manson mongrel and Witts has a bit of Wes Fellowes limpness.
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:02 pm
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inxs88 wrote:
Grundy has got a bit of James Manson mongrel and Witts has a bit of Wes Fellowes limpness.


fkn bullshit.

I saw him play several games at VFL level before he made his AFL debut, he had no problems being physical. It's (IMO) all a confidence thing.

And Wes wasn't exactly "limp" either.
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thompsoc 



Joined: 21 Sep 2009


PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:00 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
inxs88 wrote:
Grundy has got a bit of James Manson mongrel and Witts has a bit of Wes Fellowes limpness.


fkn bullshit.

I saw him play several games at VFL level before he made his AFL debut, he had no problems being physical. It's (IMO) all a confidence thing.

And Wes wasn't exactly "limp" either.

Wes never lined up to get his " viagra tablets"!

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inxs88 



Joined: 17 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:54 am
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Wes was built like Tarzan and had the physical imposition of playing like Jane. Fact (unfortunately).
Jarod needs to learn how to impact his 7ft body in a physical way. Even Buckley alluded to as such in that famous spray on the boundary line after a meek effort in the backline.
I like Jarod and are optimistic this is a possible area of improvement.

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neil Sagittarius



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Location: Queensland

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:24 am
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Wonder if someone should bump the old is Josh Fraser too aggressive thread
for those that misunderstand the problems any 210 cm ruckman will have using his body.


Remember any head high contact is the Collingwood players fault.

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:18 am
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inxs88 wrote:
Wes was built like Tarzan and had the physical imposition of playing like Jane. Fact (unfortunately).
Jarod needs to learn how to impact his 7ft body in a physical way. Even Buckley alluded to as such in that famous spray on the boundary line after a meek effort in the backline.
I like Jarod and are optimistic this is a possible area of improvement.


So your perceptions now constitute and define the basis of fact.... really.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:50 pm
Post subject: Re: The short and tall of our midfieldersReply with quote

RudeBoy wrote:
Much has been said of our supposed over abundance of dwarfs and lack of height amongst our midfield group. I've just done a check and I think this has been somewhat overstated. Considering 180 cms is around 5' 11" and 182 cms is around 6 foot, I think we can only classify 'short' players as those under 180 cms. Here, I've listed our current potential senior midfielders from tallest to shortest. I haven't listed Varcoe, Greenwood or Crisp as they are not yet on the club's website. I also haven't included Marsh or Karnezis as they are yet to become senior players.



They're up on the website now.

Consider as a future midfield all over 190cm all on our list at present

Crisp
Pendles
Karnesis
Seedsman
Scharenberg

Now, only 3 can go in the square with the ruckman at centre bounces, but that's not bad variety in attributes for 5 tall mids.
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