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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:09 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
^ I'm sure you've noticed a rather vigorous press regularly criticising the government for everything from foreign policy to the domestic economy from alomost every side and every angle since you've been here. I really don't think there's a gap in the market for what you're describing.

First, what has that got to do with "here" at all? They do have a press in other countries, you know. In fact, many other countries also think "their" press is the most vigorous, often taking a humorous swipe at the notoriously air-headed the British press at the same time!

Second, and more seriously, the gaseous nothingness of which the vast proportion of mainstream media signals are constituted, and the lack of insight into serious matters of power as exercised overseas by the government, its minions and domestic-based transnational companies acting either independently or in league with it, "anywhere", renders your comment very strange indeed.

Those who encourage people to rely on the information that reaches their ears via the mainstream media, or to rely on the mainstream media to conduct due diligence on their behalf where matters of power are concerned, particularly overseas, must want people to remain ignorant and unconcerned about the actions of their own representatives.

You can't just chant " free press, free press", as if by doing so you're magically rendering the morass of mostly distracting, highly-filtered signals buzzing about people's ears into a responsible scrutiny of the purposefully obscured actions of power.

And haven't we just come out of a discussion about the constraining delusions of Enlightenment? To then to hear one of its mustiest incantations, "but we have a vigorous press", as if the past couple of weeks went in one ear and out the other, shows just how hard a row to hoe a sincere grasp of the limits of the self—and its ironic fraternity with the universal human predicament—really is.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:13 pm
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Who, specifically, does have press in other countries?
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:21 am
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^ ptid, you wrote

"The next step is to start taking this seriously by viewing our own, detached power merchants in the very same light, not falling for their use of whatever ideological perversion is laying about to arouse people into funding, supporting and cheering on Western or Western-owned acts of violence, interference and appropriation overseas."

I was just pointing out that at least two of the mainstream serious newspapers (The Guardian and the Independent) in the Uk, where you currently reside, do this commonly from the Left. Others - notably the Telegraph - do it from the Right. My point is just that our own "detached power merchants" - who resign and beg for re-election every few years after being mercilessly bagged in the press - are continually subject to the kind of critique you're calling for.

So i think your "next step" is well and truly taken. I think that the fact the average citizen disagrees with your view that our society is as "deluded" and "racist," and "violent" as the average Islamic dictatorship (and not even close) is not an "ideological perversion" - it's just a sound attachment to freedom, and a recognition that this society represents quite an achievement by the standards of history and the present world.

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Pa Marmo 

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Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:21 am
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Here is a fine example of peace and respect, oh to be a woman in Islam.

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/woman-struggles-during-state-sanctioned-beheading-10th-execution-this-month-in-saudi-arabia/story-fnh81ifq-1227191017506

The execution was by no means an exception. This year alone, 10 people have been beheaded there — 87 people were executed last year and 78 people were executed there in 2013, placing Saudi Arabia behind only Iran and Iraq in terms of the sheer volume of state sanctioned executions. More than 2000 people were executed in Saudi Arabia between 1985 and 2013.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:29 am
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Oh, come on. As if you wouldn't be the first to support the death penalty for child molesters and killers here.

But once again, you're generalising here. Even the shock horror tabloid article goes to great pains to point out that what is practised in Saudi Arabia is wahhabism, an extremely strict interpretation of Islam that is much less commonly found elsewhere in the Islamic world. When you hear about women being banned from driving, that's only in Saudi Arabia, I believe—even in Iran, one of the most repressive religious regimes on Earth, women drive taxis and have much greater access to work. Several Muslim countries have elected female prime ministers and presidents, which is more than can be said for the USA (or Australia, until a few years ago). So, when you say "women under Islam", you're actually talking about very different situations depending on the cultural context.

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Pa Marmo 

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:37 am
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David wrote:
Oh, come on. As if you wouldn't be the first to support the death penalty for child molesters and killers here.


So you know for sure she was guilty, and what about the other 10 this year thus far or the 150 odd from the previous two years. Whats the story David, you plug the hole in your bleeding heart when its time to defend Islam, but open it up if a "Christian" is seen as the guilty party. Your bias is starting to show.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:48 am
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I know as much about the specifics of the case as you do, i.e. nothing. Without further information, we can only discuss the law itself and how it is applied, and I think it's fair to guess that our stances in principle would diverge according to ideology—that is, I oppose the death penalty in all cases, whereas I suspect that you would be inclined to support it in instances of child molestation and murder (though conservative posters on here prefer to propose torture and slow death for such crimes). Am I wrong?

The point is, I find it strange when conservatives attack Islamic states for, essentially, behaving conservatively.

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Last edited by David on Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:48 am
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Mugwump wrote:
^ ptid, you wrote

"The next step is to start taking this seriously by viewing our own, detached power merchants in the very same light, not falling for their use of whatever ideological perversion is laying about to arouse people into funding, supporting and cheering on Western or Western-owned acts of violence, interference and appropriation overseas."

I was just pointing out that at least two of the mainstream serious newspapers (The Guardian and the Independent) in the Uk, where you currently reside, do this commonly from the Left. Others - notably the Telegraph - do it from the Right. My point is just that our own "detached power merchants" - who resign and beg for re-election every few years after being mercilessly bagged in the press - are continually subject to the kind of critique you're calling for.

So i think your "next step" is well and truly taken. I think that the fact the average citizen disagrees with your view that our society is as "deluded" and "racist," and "violent" as the average Islamic dictatorship (and not even close) is not an "ideological perversion" - it's just a sound attachment to freedom, and a recognition that this society represents quite an achievement by the standards of history and the present world.

Okay, fair enough; my own paranoid overreach there. My own foibles do interfere with our discourse more than enough!

Let me rephrase that, then. We know serious scrutiny is still heavily deficient in certain areas given the destructive, detached activity which still occurs in our stead. And by "detached", I am thinking of actions taken out by states of major transnational corporations that we would never morally condone, and also actions which are oblivious to blow back in what is now a very intimate world (perhaps we could call these "geopolitical externalities").

Hence, I would prefer to look at "effective signals", rather than the existence of a press. At a certain level of plurality, the social balance itself does all the policing, with or without strongly encoded free speech protection. The problem is, we've now reached the limits of a filtered and paid for media, and most folk are too busy and stressed to do the research we do due to their many responsibilities.

Thus, somehow, we have to take this freedom another step, presumably by loosening the indirect, unwritten "punishment and discipline" wealth and capital are able to mete out on both the political system and individual civilians. Currently, if you speak up too loudly it will hurt either your pocket, or your election chances, and we have to start taking responsibility for dealing with that.

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1061 



Joined: 06 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:20 am
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David wrote:
Am I wrong?


YES


I for one would expect a quick humane death if there is such a thing. I would not support these lowlifes being dragged kicking and screaming to their death.

What I would expect is decent legal procedure not just someone accusing and being believed because of their gender, with the accused having no right to speak in their defense or appeal.

This is Australian Culture.

So please David I'll say it again ease up on whatever it is.
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Pa Marmo 

Side by Side


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:34 am
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David wrote:
I know as much about the specifics of the case as you do, i.e. nothing. Without further information, we can only discuss the law itself and how it is applied, and I think it's fair to guess that our stances in principle would diverge according to ideology—that is, I oppose the death penalty in all cases, whereas I suspect that you would be inclined to support it in instances of child molestation and murder (though conservative posters on here prefer to propose torture and slow death for such crimes). Am I wrong?

The point is, I find it strange when conservatives attack Islamic states for, essentially, behaving conservatively.


As to the death penalty: a deeper study of the bible, and largely around the new testament and mainly the words of Jesus Christ, I probably lean more towards the teaching of, " let him without sin cast the first stone". And as you well know, I certainly believe there is none without sin or fault in their, or my life, so I am probably leaning away from the death penalty somewhat.

As to the torture, I dont believe there is ever a place or time for it, violence it seems only ever begets violence.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:35 am
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Oh I really don't know whether you are or not.
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1061 



Joined: 06 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:37 am
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HAL wrote:
Oh I really don't know whether you are or not.


I won't argue with you anymore. Open the doors.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:42 am
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Pa Marmo wrote:
David wrote:
I know as much about the specifics of the case as you do, i.e. nothing. Without further information, we can only discuss the law itself and how it is applied, and I think it's fair to guess that our stances in principle would diverge according to ideology—that is, I oppose the death penalty in all cases, whereas I suspect that you would be inclined to support it in instances of child molestation and murder (though conservative posters on here prefer to propose torture and slow death for such crimes). Am I wrong?

The point is, I find it strange when conservatives attack Islamic states for, essentially, behaving conservatively.


As to the death penalty: a deeper study of the bible, and largely around the new testament and mainly the words of Jesus Christ, I probably lean more towards the teaching of, " let him without sin cast the first stone". And as you well know, I certainly believe there is none without sin or fault in their, or my life, so I am probably leaning away from the death penalty somewhat.

As to the torture, I dont believe there is ever a place or time for it, violence it seems only ever begets violence.


Fair enough. Apologies for presuming otherwise.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:55 am
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^ptid, I can actually agree with what you wrote above. Just because I love the Western way of life does not mean that i cannot see real issues with where we are heading.

The level of inequality - which 1061 referenced in an article yesterday, and which is increasingly the subject of scrutiny - is very disturbing, not least because it threatens the freedom and meritocracy which make capitalist liberal democracy (in my view!) the least imperfect system for maximising human potential yet devised. Of course I am biased by my own experience. I came from a skilled working class background, the only one in the family ever to attend university, and I "made good" with an international career based on more than a few personal sacrifices. I doubtless overrate the virtues of the present system as a result. We all live in a world of assumptions conditioned by what you rightly called our foibles.

On transnational companies, my job puts me in a contact with some senior people in them. What I see is usually someone in a position of temporary power within their own company - and beset by hostile media, pressure groups, quarterly numbers, competitors, stock analysts, regulators etc ; not to mention good old commercial and strategic risk. Their experience of power is actually extremely precarious, in my experience. And they are themselves often (un)surprisingly anxious, under the surface. I suspect this is why they try to fill their boots while they can.

You know, I don't think anyone or any group is really in control ; "the system" is way too big, fluid and complex for any group of individuals (or even institutions) to sustainably pervert. Your bugbear is natural resources, and national interests have led various governments to play a smelly military role in oil, I grant that - though the transnational oilcos are minnows compared to state owned companies. The only big transcos that I think are pretty demonstrably amoral and out-of-control in private hands are banks.

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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:15 am
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1061 wrote:
David wrote:
Am I wrong?


YES


I for one would expect a quick humane death if there is such a thing. I would not support these lowlifes being dragged kicking and screaming to their death.


So a quick stroke with the sword is "being dragged kicking and screaming" while having a rope tied in a knot around your neck and being dangled from the end of it, or being blindfolded and lined up before a firing squad, or being held down while cocktails of often dubiously lethal chemicals injected into your arm or being strapped into a death chair to have 10,000 volts zapped through your body are perfectly humane and decent punishments? Yer right.

Your point on legal procedure, however, is well made.

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