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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: |
Just more collateral damage in the war of good and evil playing out in your head, hey? |
Just another insulting comment from an arrogant tosser, hey?
Seems to be your go to move whenever you're disagreed with. Quite frankly you need to stop being a douchebag when people don't conform to your world view. |
The last time I upset people this much was when they were whipping up support for a war which led to hundreds of thousands of dead, millions of refugees, and 3T dollars in debt. I'm not sure I even register on that douchebag scale.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| pietillidie wrote: | About ten days ago my partner was a victim of violent racism on a train in the UK before my very eyes. The perpetrator was so racist she didn't even conceive it possible that I was with her.
It has badly affected my partner's confidence in public places here, and ruined the start of what ought to be a great year for her doing the master's degree she has dreamt of doing and saved up for since she was a young adult |
This shite happens periodically ( usually when there has been a raid, a social media posting, mention of a threat etc etc) where I work. Many of our medicos, scientists, nurses et al are female and wear the hijab - the abuse and from some of the more " lovely" specimens spitting directed at them is disgusting.
My hope is that one of these heroes is really sick and in real pain and guess who is his doctor and nurse and there is no-one else - wonder if they would be so big and brave then!!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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That's disgusting. Betting the Sudanese and Indians cop it too. No one deserves that. not even white people.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:01 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| It seems that I do. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Morrigu wrote: | | To me it seems that many are only interested in the Ebola " crisis" if it presents a direct threat of them being infected and the ignorance is astounding. If one more person says we shouldn't go to Rwanda and Uganda next year cause we will get Ebola I will bop them!!! |
It's astonishing, isn't it. At least one poster here has suggested that we stop flights from the entire continent. This is despite the fact that the UK, France and Italy are actually geographically closer to Liberia and Sierra Leone than many countries in Africa's east and south.
My utopia would definitely have mandatory geography classes. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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There are three levels here. There are Muslims, Islamists, and Islam.
Muslims are mostly fine, family-oriented people, trying to do the right thing.
Islamists have been responsible for the mass murder of civilians in New York, in Madrid, in London, in Nairobi, in Bali, in Nigeria, and (mostly)across the Arab world. Their aim is genocidal, and we Westerners are high up their list. The only thing protecting us from them are our security services, geographic distance, and their access to the kind of weapons that will allow them to kill us without limit. They have not yet delivered to Australia what they delivered to (eg) London, but i think this is a matter of time, population density, and chance.
Islam is a major world religion with many strands, but two of the largest strands are Deobandi and Wahhabi. Both seem ideologically incompatible with secular liberal democracy, and both seem increasingly affected by the growing virus of Islamism, including the twisted narratives about the West which are used to justify genocidal violence against us. As David says, that may change with time, though the evidence , discouragingly, points in the opposite direction.
It is not wrong to be concerned about the compatability of several of the strongest strands of Islam with liberal democracy, and it is right to undermine and attack Islamism where we can. Of course it's disgraceful to be uncivil to individual law-abiding Muslim people who are our co-citizens. But we should not confuse these issues.
The voices of those who are alarmed and threatened by the impact of Islamism and extreme Islamic practice on their cherished culture are simply the voices that democracy was designed to hear. Democracy was not made for intellectual elites. It was made for the ordinary in-situ citizen to express and determine the type of society and values that they wanted. I don't think it is legitimate to use the cry of "racism" or "Islamophobia" to suppress critique of Islam or Islamism.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What do those voices say? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's not a suppression, at least in most cases. It's a critique of the 'critique'.
While I definitely believe in listening to and trying to understand the concerns of ordinary citizens, however politically incorrect they may be, this prejudice seems too manufactured to me to sound truly organic. Most of what we hear is not the average citizen speaking up about an observed problem, it's a basic fear of the "other" that's been ruthlessly exploited.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | It's not a suppression, at least in most cases. It's a critique of the 'critique'.
While I definitely believe in listening to and trying to understand the concerns of ordinary citizens, however politically incorrect they may be, this prejudice seems too manufactured to me to sound truly organic. Most of what we hear is not the average citizen speaking up about an observed problem, it's a basic fear of the "other" that's been ruthlessly exploited. |
You mentioned above the Vietnamese, the Greeks, the Italians. None of these had a noticeable minority that wanted to kill us. It makes a difference.
Had it not been for the very real acts of terrorist violence and exhortations to do violence to us over the last 15 years, I think the position of Islam in our society would be a non-issue as it was, and is, with other ethnic groups. The massive and exceptionally cruel acts of murder committed - by a minority - in the name of this religion against Westerners, however, are pretty rational grounds for the "organic" reaction we are experiencing.
It is, I accept, very difficult to prevent criticism of Islamism and certain Islamic practices from emboldening the brainless street thugs to harass ordinary Muslims, but that's what we have to do. It's also what almost all maintsream Western politicians have, quite properly, tried to "manufacture".
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:29 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Mugwump wrote: | There are three levels here. There are Muslims, Islamists, and Islam.
Muslims are mostly fine, family-oriented people, trying to do the right thing.
Islamists have been responsible for the mass murder of civilians in New York, in Madrid, in London, in Nairobi, in Bali, in Nigeria, and (mostly)across the Arab world. Their aim is genocidal, and we Westerners are high up their list. The only thing protecting us from them are our security services, geographic distance, and their access to the kind of weapons that will allow them to kill us without limit. They have not yet delivered to Australia what they delivered to (eg) London, but i think this is a matter of time, population density, and chance.
Islam is a major world religion with many strands, but two of the largest strands are Deobandi and Wahhabi. Both seem ideologically incompatible with secular liberal democracy, and both seem increasingly affected by the growing virus of Islamism, including the twisted narratives about the West which are used to justify genocidal violence against us. As David says, that may change with time, though the evidence , discouragingly, points in the opposite direction.
It is not wrong to be concerned about the compatability of several of the strongest strands of Islam with liberal democracy, and it is right to undermine and attack Islamism where we can. Of course it's disgraceful to be uncivil to individual law-abiding Muslim people who are our co-citizens. But we should not confuse these issues.
The voices of those who are alarmed and threatened by the impact of Islamism and extreme Islamic practice on their cherished culture are simply the voices that democracy was designed to hear. Democracy was not made for intellectual elites. It was made for the ordinary in-situ citizen to express and determine the type of society and values that they wanted. I don't think it is legitimate to use the cry of "racism" or "Islamophobia" to suppress critique of Islam or Islamism. |
Well-said mate! Completely agree with this.
I think people need to understand the distinction between Muslims (people who follow Islam), Islam (religion) and Islamism (ideology based on Islamic teachings) and that a criticism of Islam or Islamism is not a criticism of Muslims in general unless stated explicitly. I'm irritated that some believe that a criticism of Islam is really inferring this idea that a particular person hates or dislikes a muslim person. If this was supposedly the case then this would be no different to questioning Catholicism and the Catholic Church or questioning Hinduism for example and then saying that it's inferring that people hate Catholics or Indian people for example.
As I said earlier until we overcome this absurd notion of 'Islamophobia' we will be no closer in having a thorough and reasonable discussion on these matters. If Islam claims to be the 'religion of peace', then someone should be able to provide reason, fact and logic to back up this assertion rather than dodging the question of whether it is peaceful or not by exclaiming that someone is an "Islamophobe" if they question such a statement.
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | I agree with Mugwump's comment 100%.
Nevertheless, Wokko, 1061 and TP, you're beginning to sound like the children of Geert Wilders and Pauline Hanson. With due respect, you all need to get a grip.
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We need to get a grip?
Oh please.
I replied to this earlier but my reply was deleted, I called you sanctimonious before and I'll repeat it now.
How dare you! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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What offended you, exactly? The bit where I told you you were beginning to sound like a pair of prominent anti-Islamic politicians, or the bit where I suggested that you get a grip?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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I do not and will not explain myself to some kid who seems to think his is the only opinion that is right or allowed(r u going 2 delete this as well?).
You may think we need to get a grip, well I think you have some growing to do! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | What offended you, exactly? The bit where I told you you were beginning to sound like a pair of prominent anti-Islamic politicians, or the bit where I suggested that you get a grip? |
Yes, they do need to get a grip. The Muslims I've been befriending and chatting with since arriving here have confirmed that in spades.
An Honduran Christian neighbour today gave me insight into the degree of racism and general social discomfort and ostracism she feels here compared to a more favourable city she comes from in the US. Nothing I haven't sensed already, despite being open to befriending and chatting to anyone. Of course, these things are only anecdotes, but they will be compared to the data as time permits.
I might be naive or not know my average neighbourhood Muslim very well yet, but thus far on the aggression front in Central Reading and less affluent Reading West the score has been: Perceived Muslim Aggression 0, Non-Perceived Muslim Aggression 10.
And what's the bet in a year's time the Knowledge and Understanding of Muslims score will be: People like You and Myself 10, Paranoid Muslim News Watchers 0. It's hopelessly predictable.
Of course, I won't be meeting the deranged fringe, such as Neo-Nazis, but still, that's better than meeting no one and still insisting you know what you're talking about.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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