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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Apples and oranges. Geez you're keen to search for positives on the anti western anti capitalist side of things. Is that to help justify your own beliefs about the current system?
Some of the kids who went over to Syria to fight or acted up here were born and/or raised here. This over seas oppression never happened to them. It happened to their family who think the kids are dickheads. |
^Colonisation which ended at 70 years ago, in most cases. I don't see Singapore or Malaysia or even Indonesia acting the same way. I see these countries getting on with building their skills, their science base, and trying to advance their own people.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Well they could always get the **** out of the west, and stay in their oppressed little heaven! Just tell me one thing about their lifestyle compared to ours that's a positive?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Apples and oranges. Geez you're keen to search for positives on the anti western anti capitalist side of things. Is that to help justify your own beliefs about the current system?
Some of the kids who went over to Syria to fight or acted up here were born and/or raised here. This over seas oppression never happened to them. It happened to their family who think the kids are dickheads. |
^Colonisation which ended at 70 years ago, in most cases. I don't see Singapore or Malaysia or even Indonesia acting the same way. I see these countries getting on with building their skills, their science base, and trying to advance their own people. |
Yes, but those countries haven't experienced nearly as much ongoing interference from the US over the past half a decade. As I said, it's not just one thing, but merely one part of a complex array of factors.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Well they could always get the **** out of the west, and stay in their oppressed little heaven! Just tell me one thing about their lifestyle compared to ours that's a positive? |
Who are we talking about here, Muslim Australians or people with anti-Western sentiments living in the Middle East? I was referring to the latter.
One presumes that people who actually move here would generally hold a slightly more positive view of Western societies.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Apples and oranges. Geez you're keen to search for positives on the anti western anti capitalist side of things. Is that to help justify your own beliefs about the current system?
Some of the kids who went over to Syria to fight or acted up here were born and/or raised here. This over seas oppression never happened to them. It happened to their family who think the kids are dickheads. |
^Colonisation which ended at 70 years ago, in most cases. I don't see Singapore or Malaysia or even Indonesia acting the same way. I see these countries getting on with building their skills, their science base, and trying to advance their own people. |
Yes, but those countries haven't experienced nearly as much ongoing interference from the US over the past half a decade. As I said, it's not just one thing, but merely one part of a complex array of factors. |
^ You mean interference like murdering 3000 innocent and uninvolved people in New York ? That preceded Iraq by two years, remember. Prior to that there was US support for Israel, sure, but that is a very complex issue as we know from many threads - and the people who really suffered from that were the Palestinians, who have received notably little practical support from their Arab brethren. The whole world has looked for stability in the MidEast because it is where the world's oil supplies come from. And unfortunately that makes the world's largest power, the US, a convenient scapegoat for those wrestling for power and oil wealth within the Arab states. Of course the US is not blameless, as no serious state with interests is ever blameless. But we need to see this issue from the inside out as well as the outside in.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Are people really using the term "Christian country"?
That is gold. I've already produced a lengthy post on that load of utter meaningless nonsense...need to dig it up....
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Apples and oranges. Geez you're keen to search for positives on the anti western anti capitalist side of things. Is that to help justify your own beliefs about the current system?
Some of the kids who went over to Syria to fight or acted up here were born and/or raised here. This over seas oppression never happened to them. It happened to their family who think the kids are dickheads. |
There is a simple way of combining the two without resorting to Hitchensian denial.
It's the same psychiatry as with any apocalyptic group; extreme environmental stress creates extreme dysfunction, while extreme dysfunction attracts people who are dysfucntional for all manner of other reasons.
No need to get all caught up in silly arguments.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | You mean interference like murdering 3000 innocent and uninvolved people in New York ? That preceded Iraq by two years, remember. Prior to that there was US support for Israel, sure, but that is a very complex issue as we know from many threads - and the people who really suffered from that were the Palestinians, who have received notably little practical support from their Arab brethren. The whole world has looked for stability in the MidEast because it is where the world's oil supplies come from. And unfortunately that makes the world's largest power, the US, a convenient scapegoat for those wrestling for power and oil wealth within the Arab states. Of course the US is not blameless, as no serious state with interests is ever blameless. But we need to see this issue from the inside out as well as the outside in. |
But you forget to mention the context behind 9/11 (not justification, of course, but context): America's crippling sanctions on Iraq in the late '90s, which Wokko's ideological soulmate Ron Paul (jks!) has spoken out against; the gulf war; intervention in Iran; and any other number of incursions into the affairs of Middle Eastern Muslim countries. Modern history didn't begin in 2001.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I definitely don't think it's wholly justified, but I don't think it's wholly unjustified, either. You've got to remember that the resentment isn't just about US foreign policy decisions, but the long history of European colonisation and partitions. If you understand how a lot of Aborigines feel about white Australia, you'll understand at least some of the resentment felt by Middle Eastern Muslims about the West in general. |
Apples and oranges. Geez you're keen to search for positives on the anti western anti capitalist side of things. Is that to help justify your own beliefs about the current system?
Some of the kids who went over to Syria to fight or acted up here were born and/or raised here. This over seas oppression never happened to them. It happened to their family who think the kids are dickheads. |
^Colonisation which ended at 70 years ago, in most cases. I don't see Singapore or Malaysia or even Indonesia acting the same way. I see these countries getting on with building their skills, their science base, and trying to advance their own people. |
Yes, but those countries haven't experienced nearly as much ongoing interference from the US over the past half a decade. As I said, it's not just one thing, but merely one part of a complex array of factors. |
^ You mean interference like murdering 3000 innocent and uninvolved people in New York ? That preceded Iraq by two years, remember. Prior to that there was US support for Israel, sure, but that is a very complex issue as we know from many threads - and the people who really suffered from that were the Palestinians, who have received notably little practical support from their Arab brethren. The whole world has looked for stability in the MidEast because it is where the world's oil supplies come from. And unfortunately that makes the world's largest power, the US, a convenient scapegoat for those wrestling for power and oil wealth within the Arab states. Of course the US is not blameless, as no serious state with interests is ever blameless. But we need to see this issue from the inside out as well as the outside in. |
Um, no. That's both historically trite and dismissive of genuine massive and destructive interference. Once you comprehensively interfere, the blame becomes yours to share.
Yes, you're right, "no serious state with interests is ever blameless". Hence, there's no reason at all to defend the US except against obvious falsehood; centres of power are intrinsically violent, thuggish and destructive; the task is to curtail them, not to justify them, and even worse, identify with them.
Not being able to divorce oneself from silly "my nation is better than yours" arguments is hardly something to aspire to, I would've thought. Nations are dumb, mindless entities which are themselves centres of destructive and violent power at at least some level; and that includes the nation/s we hold citizenship in or identify with.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| David wrote: | [quote="Mugwump"]You mean interference like murdering 3000 innocent and uninvolved people in New York ? That preceded Iraq by two years, remember. Prior to that there was US support for Israel, sure, but that is a very complex issue as we know from many threads - and the people who really suffered from that were the Palestinians, who have received notably little practical support from their Arab brethren. The whole world has looked for stability in the MidEast because it is where the world's oil supplies come from. And unfortunately that makes the world's largest power, the US, a convenient scapegoat for those wrestling for power and oil wealth within the Arab states. Of course the US is not blameless, as no serious state with interests is ever blameless. But we need to see this issue from the inside out as well as the outside in.[/quote]
But you forget to mention the context behind 9/11 (not justification, of course, but context): America's crippling sanctions on Iraq in the late '90s, which Wokko's ideological soulmate Ron Paul (jks!) has spoken out against; the gulf war; intervention in Iran; and any other number of incursions into the affairs of Middle Eastern Muslim countries. Modern history didn't begin in 2001. |
I hope to be as smart as HAL in 2001. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Some interesting responses here!
I certainly hold the belief that the Iraq War in 2003 is a catalyst for what is happening today in Iraq and Syria with ISIS emerging out of the woodwork, but to understand the problems that Iraq is experiencing at the present moment we need to look back on its history dating back further than 2003. Iraq has been a country that's been riddled by sectarian violence since the country became independent from Britain in 1932 or arguably even further back in 1920 under the League of Nations mandate. Whether it involves the US or not, every conflict involving Iraq has had some form of sectarian violence and even if ISIS is defeated, this problem of sectarian tension will continue to exist in the country and may perpetuate more violent conflicts in the future beyond today if it isn't addressed.
Regarding the ideology of Islamism and the extreme nature behind it I find it to contradict every single thing that epitomises a Western society. The problem in modern day society is that unfortunately this issue of growing Islamism hasn't been discussed enough because political correctness and this absurd notion of 'Islamophobia' has prevented reasonable and honest discussion on this subject matter. I don't believe the term Islamophobia is even a valid term to start off with. A phobia suggests an 'irrational fear' of something and is associated with a mental illness but I don't think it's irrational to fear an ideology that is oppressive, backward and it's treatment of people is despicable and barbaric.
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Last edited by Jezza on Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: |
Um, no. That's both historically trite and dismissive of genuine massive and destructive interference. Once you comprehensively interfere, the blame becomes yours to share.
Yes, you're right, "no serious state with interests is ever blameless". Hence, there's no reason at all to defend the US except against obvious falsehood; centres of power are intrinsically violent, thuggish and destructive; the task is to curtail them, not to justify them, and even worse, identify with them.
Not being able to divorce oneself from silly "my nation is better than yours" arguments is hardly something to aspire to, I would've thought. Nations are dumb, mindless entities which are themselves centres of destructive and violent power at at least some level; and that includes the nation/s we hold citizenship in or identify with. |
You'll rightly invoke Godwin's law, but can you explain to me how you would apply your reasoning to resistance against Nazi Germany, which itself was full of grievances about past "destructive interference" as it set about inflicting violence outside its borders ?
A nation is partly a story which it tells itself over and over again. Some of those stories, at some points of history, are more false, destructive and dark than others. So I do not believe that all nations are equal in their practical use and abuse of power, or in the ends of their use of power. Ask West Germany under NATO (ie US) protection vs East Germany under Russian protection. To be more powerful is not in itself to be more abusive of power.
I don't disagree with your point about the tendency to identify with one nation over another being a powerful charm, and despite strong disagreements, I think your perspective and challenge has helped me test this harder in my own affiliations and judgements. But that does not make all nations equally false, corrupt or destructive at a moment in history. Ideology matters, because we are driven by ideas as well as lusts.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: |
Um, no. That's both historically trite and dismissive of genuine massive and destructive interference. Once you comprehensively interfere, the blame becomes yours to share.
Yes, you're right, "no serious state with interests is ever blameless". Hence, there's no reason at all to defend the US except against obvious falsehood; centres of power are intrinsically violent, thuggish and destructive; the task is to curtail them, not to justify them, and even worse, identify with them.
Not being able to divorce oneself from silly "my nation is better than yours" arguments is hardly something to aspire to, I would've thought. Nations are dumb, mindless entities which are themselves centres of destructive and violent power at at least some level; and that includes the nation/s we hold citizenship in or identify with. |
You'll rightly invoke Godwin's law, but can you explain to me how you would apply your reasoning to resistance against Nazi Germany, which itself was full of grievances about past "destructive interference" as it set about inflicting violence outside its borders ?
A nation is partly a story which it tells itself over and over again. Some of those stories, at some points of history, are more false, destructive and dark than others. So I do not believe that all nations are equal in their practical use and abuse of power, or in the ends of their use of power. Ask West Germany under NATO (ie US) protection vs East Germany under Russian protection. To be more powerful is not in itself to be more abusive of power.
I don't disagree with your point about the tendency to identify with one nation over another being a powerful charm, and despite strong disagreements, I think your perspective and challenge has helped me test this harder in my own affiliations and judgements. But that does not make all nations equally false, corrupt or destructive at a moment in history. Ideology matters, because we are driven by ideas as well as lusts. |
You're not wrong on there often being a material difference between such collective entities, but the onus is on you to measure and assess it properly.
On what basis do you feel it reasonable judgement to dismiss hundreds of thousands of Iraq War dead and millions of refugees on the one hand, and ignore the utter cesspit of US poverty, conservative war to prevent healthcare, and, say, gun crime on the other? Or to count in X's atrocities and justify Y's atrocities?
And on what basis do you punish a collective of quite diverse peoples for the actions of sub-groups within their midst on the basis of this term "nation"? Do you hang the whole lot for the acts of the most deranged war criminals?
And you obviously have to make sure you're measuring the right things. An absolute psychotic child who bullies and terrorizes everyone around him can be growing well, in fine health, and doing well at his school work; but that might be wholly beside the point.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Why does the left always want to blame the US and British for their Imperial aspirations, follies and flaws in the Middle East but never mention the Ottoman empire? The same Ottoman empire that raped and pillaged its way across Europe until it was eventually stopped and then beaten once and for all during the Great War BY the same British and Americans you all want to flog? They didn't just colonize or play with puppet governments, the Ottomans conquered and ruled the entire area for hundreds of years.
The Middle Eastern mess can be tied far more simply and directly to the Ottoman Turks who conquered and meddled in the area for centuries than to the British who had a mere 30 years or the Americans who have meddled for about the same as the British before them. I think your own historical myopia is far more telling. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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