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Deja Vu
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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We have a lot of these charlatans in the Uk, using evasive codes and nihilistic relativism to urge violence against us in the name of a putrefying, sordid ideology. So sad to see it happening in Australia. Fortunately this interviewer did her best to expose it. It's not clear yet what price we may have to pay to defeat it within our own society.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| She interviewed him 7 years ago with the same result! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: |
We have a lot of these charlatans in the Uk, using evasive codes and nihilistic relativism to urge violence against us in the name of a putrefying, sordid ideology. So sad to see it happening in Australia. Fortunately this interviewer did her best to expose it. It's not clear yet what price we may have to pay to defeat it within our own society. |
Actually, whilst showing signs of being a narcissist (I don't know anything about him as the media sideshow acts bore me), he wasn't being relativistic at all. He was arguing for consistency, which is the complete opposite of relativism. Condemn all murderous psychopaths or none at all. The guy may well be a fruitbat, but if so he's simply a mirror image of the fruit bats who still refuse to condemn the Iraq War, and refuse to bring its violent, sloganeering, fanatical ringleaders to account.
As for the price of dealing with a small handful of vocal deviants talking nonsense, no doubt it will be many, many magnitudes less than cleaning up after the wars carried out to protect the high-risk private investments of that other small handful of vocal deviants that are always talking nonsense.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ the trouble is, these people are not media sideshow acts. Their distorted narrative lies behind Atocha/Madrid (191 dead), Mumbai (164) London (55), New York (3000), Nairobi (39+), and indeed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Syria. It is the nihilism of a serial killer's lawyer who only wants to discuss police shootings. This interview makes that clear. The subtext is a call for violence against the West, of course. That we know these people are monsters of falsehood does not mean that deluded Muslim kids -and their victims - will not die, as a result of their false equations.
Almost all of the dead in the Iraq War were killed by muslim extremists and sectarians who, as in Syria now, used the death throes of oppressive rule to unleash their own violent and psychopathic grab for power. The tactic is to cause death and terror on a vast scale, then blame it on" the West". Unfortunately Iraq 2 poured fuel on the fire and gave them some specious justification, but the fire - as 9/11 showed - was already raging.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ the trouble is, these people are not media sideshow acts. Their distorted narrative lies behind Atocha/Madrid (191 dead), Mumbai (164) London (55), New York (3000), Nairobi (39+), and indeed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Syria. It is the nihilism of a serial killer's lawyer who only wants to discuss police shootings. This interview makes that clear. The subtext is a call for violence against the West, of course. That we know these people are monsters of falsehood does not mean that deluded Muslim kids -and their victims - will not die, as a result of their false equations.
Almost all of the dead in the Iraq War were killed by muslim extremists and sectarians who, as in Syria now, used the death throes of oppressive rule to unleash their own violent and psychopathic grab for power. The tactic is to cause death and terror on a vast scale, then blame it on" the West". Unfortunately Iraq 2 poured fuel on the fire and gave them some specious justification, but the fire - as 9/11 showed - was already raging. |
You're just playing with empty euphemisms, as if the very words "pouring fuel on the fire" somehow, in actual, lived reality, equate to something other than murderous, imperialist fanaticism which didn't give a fraction of a damn about other people's lives, treating them instead as tokens on a game board.
These are the meaningless space metaphors we use to convert our behaviour into Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" which, while actually caused by us, goes through the Divine Fiat Tunnel and turns into something evil on the other side, but devoid of our agency! That's nothing more than religion:
I'm saved! I'm saved! My sins have been washed away by a magical intercessor!
You can't hide behind partial blame, distance, time and euphemism. We directly and indirectly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees. The absolute best you could possibly do without being totally denialistic is to call it criminal negligence, or dispense assessment from outright opportunistic mass murder down to culpable negligence.
Every single time the West violates others it denies and denies to bide time, and then once the memories have faded, accuses others of being "relativistic" and its own intentions of being "pure". Again and again; it's the oldest tactic in the book, especially when you control the discourse. Basic PR 101 for the disingenuous.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ the trouble is, these people are not media sideshow acts. Their distorted narrative lies behind Atocha/Madrid (191 dead), Mumbai (164) London (55), New York (3000), Nairobi (39+), and indeed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Syria. It is the nihilism of a serial killer's lawyer who only wants to discuss police shootings. This interview makes that clear. The subtext is a call for violence against the West, of course. That we know these people are monsters of falsehood does not mean that deluded Muslim kids -and their victims - will not die, as a result of their false equations.
Almost all of the dead in the Iraq War were killed by muslim extremists and sectarians who, as in Syria now, used the death throes of oppressive rule to unleash their own violent and psychopathic grab for power. The tactic is to cause death and terror on a vast scale, then blame it on" the West". Unfortunately Iraq 2 poured fuel on the fire and gave them some specious justification, but the fire - as 9/11 showed - was already raging. |
You're just playing with empty euphemisms, as if the very words "pouring fuel on the fire" somehow, in actual, lived reality, equate to something other than murderous, imperialist fanaticism which didn't give a fraction of a damn about other people's lives, treating them instead as tokens on a game board.
These are the meaningless space metaphors we use to convert our behaviour into Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" which, while actually caused by us, goes through the Divine Fiat Tunnel and turns into something evil on the other side, but devoid of our agency! That's nothing more than religion:
I'm saved! I'm saved! My sins have been washed away by a magical intercessor!
You can't hide behind partial blame, distance, time and euphemism. We directly and indirectly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees. The absolute best you could possibly do without being totally denialistic is to call it criminal negligence, or dispense assessment from outright opportunistic mass murder down to culpable negligence.
Every single time the West violates others it denies and denies to bide time, and then once the memories have faded, accuses others of being "relativistic" and its own intentions of being "pure". Again and again; it's the oldest tactic in the book, especially when you control the discourse. Basic PR 101 for the disingenuous. |
So you agree with the views in that transcript ? It sounds as though you do ?
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ the trouble is, these people are not media sideshow acts. Their distorted narrative lies behind Atocha/Madrid (191 dead), Mumbai (164) London (55), New York (3000), Nairobi (39+), and indeed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Syria. It is the nihilism of a serial killer's lawyer who only wants to discuss police shootings. This interview makes that clear. The subtext is a call for violence against the West, of course. That we know these people are monsters of falsehood does not mean that deluded Muslim kids -and their victims - will not die, as a result of their false equations.
Almost all of the dead in the Iraq War were killed by muslim extremists and sectarians who, as in Syria now, used the death throes of oppressive rule to unleash their own violent and psychopathic grab for power. The tactic is to cause death and terror on a vast scale, then blame it on" the West". Unfortunately Iraq 2 poured fuel on the fire and gave them some specious justification, but the fire - as 9/11 showed - was already raging. |
You're just playing with empty euphemisms, as if the very words "pouring fuel on the fire" somehow, in actual, lived reality, equate to something other than murderous, imperialist fanaticism which didn't give a fraction of a damn about other people's lives, treating them instead as tokens on a game board.
These are the meaningless space metaphors we use to convert our behaviour into Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" which, while actually caused by us, goes through the Divine Fiat Tunnel and turns into something evil on the other side, but devoid of our agency! That's nothing more than religion:
I'm saved! I'm saved! My sins have been washed away by a magical intercessor!
You can't hide behind partial blame, distance, time and euphemism. We directly and indirectly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees. The absolute best you could possibly do without being totally denialistic is to call it criminal negligence, or dispense assessment from outright opportunistic mass murder down to culpable negligence.
Every single time the West violates others it denies and denies to bide time, and then once the memories have faded, accuses others of being "relativistic" and its own intentions of being "pure". Again and again; it's the oldest tactic in the book, especially when you control the discourse. Basic PR 101 for the disingenuous. |
So you agree with the views in that transcript ? It sounds as though you do ? |
Such childish media rubbish should be of no interest to responsible, intelligent adults in general.
In the land of mature, intelligent adults, we don't care if a proposition is quacked by a duck, written on a dunny door, or spoken by a narcissistic fanatic in a ridiculous TV interview.
The only questions which concern me are these:
Should violent fanaticism be condemned wherever it is found?
How can we reduce the menace of violent fanaticism?
Of course that means both sides who have been/are currently violently intervening in other people's lives and business ought to be condemned with full and equal vigor, including the ones wearings suits and ties with hairstyles like ours who did all that damage over the past decade, and did filthy deals with tyrants every decade before that.
And it also means taking rational, scientific actions which reduce violence as a metric, and that means curtailing the creeps on both sides, from whacko religious leaders to whacko corporate leaders, who opportunistically prey on the vulnerable and use each other's vile intentions to escalate conflict and drag the rest of us into it.
How you can't grasp the mutually-sustaining psychiatry of the fanatics on both sides is beyond me. Extremists need other extremists to justify their own existence; it happens in every major conflict and only stops when it is exposed for what it is. That's the incest you should be worried about.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ the trouble is, these people are not media sideshow acts. Their distorted narrative lies behind Atocha/Madrid (191 dead), Mumbai (164) London (55), New York (3000), Nairobi (39+), and indeed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Syria. It is the nihilism of a serial killer's lawyer who only wants to discuss police shootings. This interview makes that clear. The subtext is a call for violence against the West, of course. That we know these people are monsters of falsehood does not mean that deluded Muslim kids -and their victims - will not die, as a result of their false equations.
Almost all of the dead in the Iraq War were killed by muslim extremists and sectarians who, as in Syria now, used the death throes of oppressive rule to unleash their own violent and psychopathic grab for power. The tactic is to cause death and terror on a vast scale, then blame it on" the West". Unfortunately Iraq 2 poured fuel on the fire and gave them some specious justification, but the fire - as 9/11 showed - was already raging. |
You're just playing with empty euphemisms, as if the very words "pouring fuel on the fire" somehow, in actual, lived reality, equate to something other than murderous, imperialist fanaticism which didn't give a fraction of a damn about other people's lives, treating them instead as tokens on a game board.
These are the meaningless space metaphors we use to convert our behaviour into Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" which, while actually caused by us, goes through the Divine Fiat Tunnel and turns into something evil on the other side, but devoid of our agency! That's nothing more than religion:
I'm saved! I'm saved! My sins have been washed away by a magical intercessor!
You can't hide behind partial blame, distance, time and euphemism. We directly and indirectly caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees. The absolute best you could possibly do without being totally denialistic is to call it criminal negligence, or dispense assessment from outright opportunistic mass murder down to culpable negligence.
Every single time the West violates others it denies and denies to bide time, and then once the memories have faded, accuses others of being "relativistic" and its own intentions of being "pure". Again and again; it's the oldest tactic in the book, especially when you control the discourse. Basic PR 101 for the disingenuous. |
So you agree with the views in that transcript ? It sounds as though you do ? |
Such childish media rubbish should be of no interest to responsible, intelligent adults in general.
In the land of mature, intelligent adults, we don't care if a proposition is quacked by a duck, written on a dunny door, or spoken by a narcissistic fanatic in a ridiculous TV interview.
The only questions which concern me are these:
Should violent fanaticism be condemned wherever it is found?
How can we reduce the menace of violent fanaticism?
Of course that means both sides who have been/are currently violently intervening in other people's lives and business ought to be condemned with full and equal vigor, including the ones wearings suits and ties with hairstyles like ours who did all that damage over the past decade, and did filthy deals with tyrants every decade before that.
And it also means taking rational, scientific actions which reduce violence as a metric, and that means curtailing the creeps on both sides, from whacko religious leaders to whacko corporate leaders, who opportunistically prey on the vulnerable and use each other's vile intentions to escalate conflict and drag the rest of us into it.
How you can't grasp the mutually-sustaining psychiatry of the fanatics on both sides is beyond me. Extremists need other extremists to justify their own existence; it happens in every major conflict and only stops when it is exposed for what it is. That's the incest you should be worried about. |
^ ptid, thanks. I think there is a difference between what was done in Iraq by the Coalition of the deluded - which i did not support - and what is done by IS. While Iraq 2 unleashed terrible consequences, these were not, I think, intentional, though as you've rightly said, how one judges intent is problematic. I actually think intent is easier to judge when you have the same social context as the person you're assessing, you think it's harder. We'll have to disagree about that.
The US allowed itself - via an especially crude President - to be suckered into a revenge war for 9/11, and Blair, as far as I can tell, believed that 9/11 changed everything by showing that nothing was off limits if the IS types were able to get their hands on WMD. I'm still not sure he's wrong on that, though the stategic implicaition he drew from it re Iraq was certainly off-beam.
I'm pretty sure, though - as sure as I can be without actually being there - that the vast majority of the "direct" killing, as you described it above, was done not by Western Forces, but by Islamic sectarians and extremists of the type we now see in IS. It happened in Iraq, and I thought it was down to the presence of Westerners, but Syria suggests not.
Back on our Hizb-ut-Tahrir IS apologist, whatever the rights and wrongs of the past, we need to clamp down on these misery makers on Australian soil, sharpish, or I believe that Collins St or Pitt St will one day take their place among the outrages.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^If the genuinely high-risk are not being properly mitigated as we speak then yes, we are at risk. It would be a shame to spend valuable resources on policing hot air and media phantoms, however.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | ^If the genuinely high-risk are not being properly mitigated as we speak then yes, we are at risk. It would be a shame to spend valuable resources on policing hot air and media phantoms, however. |
^ The hot air (ie the false narrative that the problems of the Islamic world are all the fault of the West, which is engaged in a war against Islam) is the seed-fuel of the bombers. We need to attack it as a false narrative, all the time and at every level, or more innocents will die or be maimed. Policing the hot air is probably the best place to start.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | ^If the genuinely high-risk are not being properly mitigated as we speak then yes, we are at risk. It would be a shame to spend valuable resources on policing hot air and media phantoms, however. |
^ The hot air (ie the false narrative that the problems of the Islamic world are all the fault of the West, which is engaged in a war against Islam) is the genetic fuel of the bombers. We need to attack it as a false narrative, all the time and at every level, or more innocents will die or be maimed. Policing the hot air is probably the best place to start. |
You're just repeating the same errors and fueling the same nuttiness. You're not fighting anything except baduk tokens in your mind.
The thing which surprises me is how low your bar is for analysing human behaviour. Bomb a village or blow the legs off a few children, then put on a suit and hire a PR team and say you did it in the name of humanity, and you're sold!
Step back for god's sake man and stop hanging around the same old people with the same old West is Best thinking.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | ^If the genuinely high-risk are not being properly mitigated as we speak then yes, we are at risk. It would be a shame to spend valuable resources on policing hot air and media phantoms, however. |
^ The hot air (ie the false narrative that the problems of the Islamic world are all the fault of the West, which is engaged in a war against Islam) is the genetic fuel of the bombers. We need to attack it as a false narrative, all the time and at every level, or more innocents will die or be maimed. Policing the hot air is probably the best place to start. |
You're just repeating the same errors and fueling the same nuttiness. You're not fighting anything except baduk tokens in your mind.
The thing which surprises me is how low your bar is for analysing human behaviour. Bomb a village or blow the legs off a few children, then put on a suit and hire a PR team and say you did it in the name of humanity, and you're sold!
Step back for god's sake man and stop hanging around the same old people with the same old West is Best thinking. |
^ Do you seriously believe that the likes of Hizb-ut-Tahrir and the narrative they spin has nothing to do with radicalisation and bombings?
"West is Best" is far too simplistic, of course, and I'll leave that aside as it's not what I believe.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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The biggest problem in Syria/Iraq isn't necessarily foreign occupation, the biggest problem is the ongoing Sectarian violence that has been existent since the time it became independent in 1932. That's not to say that the British didn't play a role in that but the Sunni-Shia conflict has been existent since the time the Prophet Muhammad died in 632 and the differences of opinion between the two regarding who should have been the successor of Muhammad.
Regarding the Lateline interview last night, the representative for Hizb-ut-Tahirir was nothing short of a disgrace who couldn't answer one simple question regarding ISIS instead it was resorted to using old anti-American rhetoric to avoid answering the questions posed to him.
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