ISIS
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think positive 
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | think positive wrote: |
Funny, this is exactly the conversation I had with my husband yesterday:
"They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didnt like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didnt have war. When you came here, the civil war started.
Hubby said they never should have god rid of him, he had it under control, I replied,yeah at least he was only torturing, killing his own people.
What kind of world do we live in? I just can't believe in this day and age it's still happening, you'd reckon the world would have learnt from Idi Amin, and hitter, just how dangerous a crazy, power obsessed despot is.
So Isis was formed inside the prisons the allies had them in? Damn shame they didn't shoot them all then. |
The article was on The Nation, TP. It's a Leftist magazine, and so you can be guaranteed that the punch-line would be that it's all really America's fault.... I was waiting for it, and it duly came. I can well believe that the boy in the article said that quote .... and that when he did, I'm confidenth that what he really meant is that before the American invasion the Sunnis were on top in Iraq, and therefore the tribe and family he is most attached to were proud. Now the Shia are on top, and that's ISIS's biggest grievance. It's not the loss of security - ISIS and the Sunni insurgencies are themselves the biggest cause of that. It's the loss of security on Sunni terms.
The US (and the UK and Australia) bears responsibility for destabilising Iraq in 2003, though I suspect it'd have blown up eventually, as the rest of the Arab world did - with the usual dysfunctional results - in the Arab spring. And if it didn't blow up, there'd have been massive bloodshed at Saddam's hands to prevent it. It's that kind of place. The trouble is, that it's coming here. |
Yeah, we stirred the hornets nest. And yet those wasps were evil feckers, hurting their own people. Something had to be done. Just needed to go further, a determinate them, cos now,they are coming after us.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
You can exterminate the ISIS leaders, and I'm quite sure that the efforts to do this have just escalated big time, but what to do next has got me $%$ed.
While you've got populations of different varieties of Muslims who hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel and the USA I can't see any solution other than redrawing national boundaries and creating new countries from scratch. Even then the mad bastards would probably just spend their time shooting at each other in border disputes. 
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
You can exterminate the ISIS leaders, and I'm quite sure that the efforts to do this have just escalated big time, but what to do next has got me $%$ed.
While you've got populations of different varieties of Muslims who hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel and the USA I can't see any solution other than redrawing national boundaries and creating new countries from scratch. Even then the mad bastards would probably just spend their time shooting at each other in border disputes. |
True
Maybe morrigu is right, blew em all up!
Seems crazy though doesn't it? Surely there is enough space to go around?
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Last edited by think positive on Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Fair rant this.
| Quote: | WALEED Aly has unleashed on Australias politicians and Muslim leaders who have preached hate in the wake of the Paris attacks saying their actions actually help Islamic State rather than defeat them.
The Project co-host used his regular We need to talk about segment to not only call for solidarity following the atrocity, which left 132 people dead and hundreds more injured, but to highlight what he says is the truth about the militant organisation that theyre weak. |
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/waleed-aly-hits-out-at-isis-over-paris-attacks-calls-them-weak/story-fn948wjf-1227611388541
FWIW I agree.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Aly always gets it right on these topics. Well said.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Yes, more responsible work from Aly.
But it's also astonishingly painful to think it has to be explained that one sect of fanatical, oil-funded extremists that is fighting wars with various other Muslim groups in various countries of consisting of various Muslim peoples is not a friend of "Muslims".
I mean, to think that has to be spelt out is an extraordinarily bad sign.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Yes and no.
If a Collingwood player spat on an umpire, I'd come out and say "not in my name". It's good that they distance themselves.
And please please, leave Adam goodesout of it
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Yes, but if a Yarrambat seconds player did it and then said he represented the one true Collingwood Football Club that God has called to rule all football leagues you would simply call him a fruitcake.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | ^Yes, but if a Yarrambat seconds player did it and then said he represented the one true Collingwood Football Club that God has called to rule all football leagues you would simply call him a fruitcake. |
Sure, but it's not the Yarrambat seconds. It's a substantial Sunni uprising in key parts of the Middle East, supported by many to various extents.
The British Muslim attitudes survey (as reported in the Independent this year, no right-wing rag) showed that "11 per cent of British Muslims sympathise with fighting against the West. That 20 per cent of them believe Western liberal society can never be compatible with Islam. That 11 per cent feel that organisations which publish images of the Prophet Mohammed deserve to be attacked."
Calling that the "Yarrambat seconds" is not really adequate. There may be many different ways to diagnose and deal with the problem (and because it is the Independent and written by a Muslim, this article suggests that it's "our" fault, of course), but denying the problem exists is not one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-the-survey-of-british-muslim-attitudes-is-so-profoundly-disconcerting-10070358.html
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^It's not denying the surface incompatibility of the claims, it's knowing the science of the claims and the dissonance between them and actual community behaviour.
This is a mainstream immigrant psychology topic, well-studied. The same dissonance is found in immigrant communities of all sorts going way back in history. Track the phenomenon over time and watch it change, with spikes here and there when tensions flare up.
The main difference in this case is the lack of closure following the aftermath of September 11, continued on through the bombings and wars and now the false association with ISIS. This is monumental emotional stress to place on immigrant communities, and that stress is rooted in known and understood psychology.
I for one do my best to go out of my way to help in some tiny way reduce that community's stress, and I would encourage more people to do the same.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | ^Yes, but if a Yarrambat seconds player did it and then said he represented the one true Collingwood Football Club that God has called to rule all football leagues you would simply call him a fruitcake. |
Sure, but it's not the Yarrambat seconds. It's a substantial Sunni uprising in key parts of the Middle East, supported by many to various extents.
The British Muslim attitudes survey (as reported in the Independent this year, no right-wing rag) showed that "11 per cent of British Muslims sympathise with fighting against the West. That 20 per cent of them believe Western liberal society can never be compatible with Islam. That 11 per cent feel that organisations which publish images of the Prophet Mohammed deserve to be attacked."
Calling that the "Yarrambat seconds" is not really adequate. There may be many different ways to diagnose and deal with the problem (and because it is the Independent and written by a Muslim, this article suggests that it's "our" fault, of course), but denying the problem exists is not one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-the-survey-of-british-muslim-attitudes-is-so-profoundly-disconcerting-10070358.html |
Great & worrying article Mugwump.
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | Fair rant this.
| Quote: | WALEED Aly has unleashed on Australias politicians and Muslim leaders who have preached hate in the wake of the Paris attacks saying their actions actually help Islamic State rather than defeat them.
The Project co-host used his regular We need to talk about segment to not only call for solidarity following the atrocity, which left 132 people dead and hundreds more injured, but to highlight what he says is the truth about the militant organisation that theyre weak. |
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/waleed-aly-hits-out-at-isis-over-paris-attacks-calls-them-weak/story-fn948wjf-1227611388541
FWIW I agree. |
Bloody apologist. Good rant.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^It's not denying the surface incompatibility of the claims, it's knowing the science of the claims and the dissonance between them and actual community behaviour.
This is a mainstream immigrant psychology topic, well-studied. The same dissonance is found in immigrant communities of all sorts going way back in history. Track the phenomenon over time and watch it change, with spikes here and there when tensions flare up.
The main difference in this case is the lack of closure following the aftermath of September 11, continued on through the bombings and wars and now the false association with ISIS. This is monumental emotional stress to place on immigrant communities, and that stress is rooted in known and understood psychology.
I for one do my best to go out of my way to help in some tiny way reduce that community's stress, and I would encourage more people to do the same. |
I reckon the events of September 11 caused a fair bit of emotional stress to the Americans,
I have friends who are Muslim, I treat them as I treat my other friends, like people, like friends, if I start going out of my way to make them feel at home, then they will stop feeling like just another Aussie who lives here!
That 10% is a worrying figure, that's a lot of people who don't think they will ever be able to assimilate properly where they live, I don't get why people move to another country that doesn't have the belief system that they prefer.
Ah the lucky country, roll up roll up,
This is a good thing
http://www.lifegate.com/people/news/notinmyname-muslims-against-isis
As was the #illridewithyou after the nutcase in Sydney
Both have been posted on my Facebook page
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| stui magpie wrote: | Fair rant this.
| Quote: | WALEED Aly has unleashed on Australias politicians and Muslim leaders who have preached hate in the wake of the Paris attacks saying their actions actually help Islamic State rather than defeat them.
The Project co-host used his regular We need to talk about segment to not only call for solidarity following the atrocity, which left 132 people dead and hundreds more injured, but to highlight what he says is the truth about the militant organisation that theyre weak. |
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/waleed-aly-hits-out-at-isis-over-paris-attacks-calls-them-weak/story-fn948wjf-1227611388541
FWIW I agree. |
It's a well-intentioned and good-natured message by Aly and I hope it has some kind of impact when it comes to the prevention of the radicalisation of young Muslims in the west but that won't kill off the group though which is where I think Aly is being idealistic on his views on ISIS. Most of their fighters still come from the Middle East but having foreign fighters in their ranks certainly benefits them for propaganda purposes.
They're a cowardly group (which is how I interpret them as 'weak) but I'm not sure that they're weak in the general sense necessarily. No one thought that they had the capabilities of taking over territory in Syria and Iraq the way they did last year in June and also being able to expand itself globally with several splinter groups in Africa, Asia and even in the Caribbean  .
Al-Qaeda was never this powerful and were more focused on committing attacks rather than seizing territory and implementing Sharia Law knowing full well it would cause severe backlash amongst Muslim communities if they rushed this process so inadvertently ISIS has actually killed Al-Qaeda's main goals and desires by implementing their own ideology as soon as they have whereas Al-Qaeda wanted to rely on the people turning on their own governments and bankrupt the US and Western nations by making them participate in long tedious wars and therefore they would be seen as the viable alternative to the masses rather than forcefully imposing it on them the way ISIS has. Hence it's one reason why these two groups are enemies and why ISIS is seen as a 'cancer' in jihadi circles.
PTID is right about the funding they're receiving from oil and the 'fossil fuels economy' as he would call it but I can't see this aspect of funding ending any time soon unless we completely sever ties from the Middle East but that would be a radical shift in foreign policy.
On top of this, Middle Eastern nations need to curb the growth of Salafism/Wahhabism especially in the Gulf States and sectarianism has to stop dictating and dividing the Middle East which ISIS is exploiting to their advantage.
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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