ISIS
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Jezza 
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The Kurds are probably the unluckiest ethnic group in the region as their struggle for autonomy and cultural rights has been an ongoing battle for decades as outside interests have attempted to clamp down on them.
Turkey hates the prospect of them being liberated and having their own state hence they've actually conducted airstrikes directly against them. ISIS want to take over their territory and continue to establish their so-called "caliphate". Syrian and Iraqi governments (especially under Saddam) have persecuted them for a number of years and they still have no state of their own.
The fact that they've actually defeated ISIS in numerous battles recently (with the Battle of Kobani being the most notable) speaks volumes of their strong manpower despite the adversity they continually face.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| When was this exactly? |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Jezza wrote: |
The Kurds are probably the unluckiest ethnic group in the region as their struggle for autonomy and cultural rights has been an ongoing battle for decades as outside interests have attempted to clamp down on them.
Turkey hates the prospect of them being liberated and having their own state hence they've actually conducted airstrikes directly against them. ISIS want to take over their territory and continue to establish their so-called "caliphate". Syrian and Iraqi governments (especially under Saddam) have persecuted them for a number of years and they still have no state of their own.
The fact that they've actually defeated ISIS in numerous battles recently (with the Battle of Kobani being the most notable) speaks volumes of their strong manpower despite the adversity they continually face. |
Hopefully their courage is recognised and they get their own home, everyone deserves that
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street
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| Jezza wrote: |
The Kurds are probably the unluckiest ethnic group in the region as their struggle for autonomy and cultural rights has been an ongoing battle for decades as outside interests have attempted to clamp down on them.
Turkey hates the prospect of them being liberated and having their own state hence they've actually conducted airstrikes directly against them. ISIS want to take over their territory and continue to establish their so-called "caliphate". Syrian and Iraqi governments (especially under Saddam) have persecuted them for a number of years and they still have no state of their own.
The fact that they've actually defeated ISIS in numerous battles recently (with the Battle of Kobani being the most notable) speaks volumes of their strong manpower despite the adversity they continually face. |
Are the stateless Kurds any more "unlucky" than the stateless Palestinians, Druze, Alawites, Yazidi or Assyrians? You can also be unlucky being Sunni or Shia depending which country you are in and who's in power.
The idea that all those disparate peoples with their very different histories, customs, languages & religions could all be cobbled together in randomly made up countries (read Syria & Iraq) is still the root cause of the problems today. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ all fair points, sixpoints. i also want to acknowledge that you educated me about how direct Churchill's involvement was in the border-drawing in the ME. I had thought that Sykes-Picot defined borders, but I spent an hour reading up on the Cairo conference yesterday, and yep, Churchill was a motive force in setting the actual borders five years after S-P defined spheres of influence. Fair play to you, cheers.
On the subject of borders more generally, the present phase of the ME is arguably a process of finding borders that are viable, much as the conflicts of the Middle Ages were in Europe, and the US-Mexican wars were in the late 1800s, etc etc. Without a certain level of ethnic, linguistic, and cultural commonality, it requires immense top-down pressure to suppress explosiive forces. That is a large part (though not all) of the story of the modern ME. I guess that's your point, and it's well made.
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Jezza
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| sixpoints wrote: | | Jezza wrote: |
The Kurds are probably the unluckiest ethnic group in the region as their struggle for autonomy and cultural rights has been an ongoing battle for decades as outside interests have attempted to clamp down on them.
Turkey hates the prospect of them being liberated and having their own state hence they've actually conducted airstrikes directly against them. ISIS want to take over their territory and continue to establish their so-called "caliphate". Syrian and Iraqi governments (especially under Saddam) have persecuted them for a number of years and they still have no state of their own.
The fact that they've actually defeated ISIS in numerous battles recently (with the Battle of Kobani being the most notable) speaks volumes of their strong manpower despite the adversity they continually face. |
Are the stateless Kurds any more "unlucky" than the stateless Palestinians, Druze, Alawites, Yazidi or Assyrians? You can also be unlucky being Sunni or Shia depending which country you are in and who's in power.
The idea that all those disparate peoples with their very different histories, customs, languages & religions could all be cobbled together in randomly made up countries (read Syria & Iraq) is still the root cause of the problems today. |
Yes very fair points Sixpoints.
Hard to disagree with you on the origins of these problems that we see today in the Middle East.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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An interesting enough read, yes, but no surprises there. ISIS fighters are Sunni, mostly ill-educated, very Islamic, often jobless and sex-deprived, and hate America. I didn't really get the breakthrough insight that I was looking for. But then again, I rarely do from the deeply political "Nation".... Any publication which has the raison d'etre of allowing like-minded people to talk to themselves is probably unlikely to move a debate forward.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Funny, this is exactly the conversation I had with my husband yesterday:
"They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Hubby said they never should have god rid of him, he had it under control, I replied,yeah at least he was only torturing, killing his own people.
What kind of world do we live in? I just can't believe in this day and age it's still happening, you'd reckon the world would have learnt from Idi Amin, and hitter, just how dangerous a crazy, power obsessed despot is.
So Isis was formed inside the prisons the allies had them in? Damn shame they didn't shoot them all then.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | An interesting enough read, yes, but no surprises there. ISIS fighters are Sunni, mostly ill-educated, very Islamic, often jobless and sex-deprived, and hate America. |
Let's not forget an important detail. Part of their brainwashing is to dehumanise infidels. They are taught that those who do not follow the true faith are basically less than animals. That's how they can rape and kill so easily, they just don't view the subject as a human being.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: |
Funny, this is exactly the conversation I had with my husband yesterday:
"They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Hubby said they never should have god rid of him, he had it under control, I replied,yeah at least he was only torturing, killing his own people.
What kind of world do we live in? I just can't believe in this day and age it's still happening, you'd reckon the world would have learnt from Idi Amin, and hitter, just how dangerous a crazy, power obsessed despot is.
So Isis was formed inside the prisons the allies had them in? Damn shame they didn't shoot them all then. |
The article was on The Nation, TP. It's a Leftist magazine, and so you can be guaranteed that the punch-line would be that it's all really America's fault.... I was waiting for it, and it duly came. I can well believe that the boy in the article said that quote .... and that when he did, I'm confidenth that what he really meant is that before the American invasion the Sunnis were on top in Iraq, and therefore the tribe and family he is most attached to were proud. Now the Shia are on top, and that's ISIS's biggest grievance. It's not the loss of security - ISIS and the Sunni insurgencies are themselves the biggest cause of that. It's the loss of security on Sunni terms.
The US (and the UK and Australia) bears responsibility for destabilising Iraq in 2003, though I suspect it'd have blown up eventually, as the rest of the Arab world did - with the usual dysfunctional results - in the Arab spring. And if it didn't blow up, there'd have been massive bloodshed at Saddam's hands to prevent it. It's that kind of place. The trouble is, that it's coming here.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I am betting you are wrong about that. |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| think positive wrote: |
Funny, this is exactly the conversation I had with my husband yesterday:
"They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”
Hubby said they never should have god rid of him, he had it under control, I replied,yeah at least he was only torturing, killing his own people.
What kind of world do we live in? I just can't believe in this day and age it's still happening, you'd reckon the world would have learnt from Idi Amin, and hitter, just how dangerous a crazy, power obsessed despot is.
So Isis was formed inside the prisons the allies had them in? Damn shame they didn't shoot them all then. |
It's true that Iraq under Saddam was much more stable than it was after the 2003 invasion but Iraq was hardly a paradise in those days even under Saddam. Just ask the Shias and Kurds of what they thought of Saddam and the way he brutalised these people plus while many will say Saddam was a secularist, many of his policies were Islamist and sectarian-based.
ISIS weren't formed inside the prisons that the US controlled but the group certainly flourished inside those walls however. This is around 2004 whereas ISIS had already existed by then but were known as the Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad and led by Zarqawi. The origins of ISIS can be traced back to him and exist pre-Iraq war days but they were insignificant before the invasion.
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Mugwump wrote: | The article was on The Nation, TP. It's a Leftist magazine, and so you can be guaranteed that the punch-line would be that it's all really America's fault.... I was waiting for it, and it duly came. I can well believe that the boy in the article said that quote .... and that when he did, I'm confidenth that what he really meant is that before the American invasion the Sunnis were on top in Iraq, and therefore the tribe and family he is most attached to were proud. Now the Shia are on top, and that's ISIS's biggest grievance. It's not the loss of security - ISIS and the Sunni insurgencies are themselves the biggest cause of that. It's the loss of security on Sunni terms.
The US (and the UK and Australia) bears responsibility for destabilising Iraq in 2003, though I suspect it'd have blown up eventually, as the rest of the Arab world did - with the usual dysfunctional results - in the Arab spring. And if it didn't blow up, there'd have been massive bloodshed at Saddam's hands to prevent it. It's that kind of place. The trouble is, that it's coming here. |
Excellent post Mugwump!
I know it's a question of hindsight and we cannot change the past but I've always wondered whether Iraq would have faced a similar predicament than Syria as a result of the Arab Spring if Western forces didn't intervene in the first place.
I've always thought that the possibility was likely as Saddam along with Assad in Syria belonged to a dominant minority who had been in power for decades and had dictated much of its policy around sectarian differences and making sure that a cult of personality surrounded them.
The fact that Saddam persecuted a majority in his own country along with the Kurds suggests that his days could have been potentially numbered just like Assad in Syria but at the same time it could have been Saddam's sons who would have continued the power hold in Iraq had Saddam suddenly died or stepped down as leader at some point and would have had to deal with the potential uprising.
A lot of it is based on 'what ifs' but my inclining suggests that Iraq would have faced similar troubles than what Syria is experiencing if western forces didn't intervene in Iraq back in 2003. The trouble and escalation of conflict in Iraq was inevitable and the west merely accelerated these problems rather than caused them directly.
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