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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^ I don't understand what you are trying to convey by your first paragraph. Do you intend to convey that it would have been somehow a less terrible atrocity if it hadn't been at a university? Or that it would have been somehow less disturbing to read if it had been a deliberate attempt to kill Muslims? |
While the loss of life is just as tragic as it would have been had the atrocity been committed in a shopping centre or public place, there is something additionally disturbing about it occurring at a university. This is not just an attack on innocent people, but an assault on education and free thought. Scaring people away from an institution of learning suits the goals of an anti-intellectual organisation quite well. After all, they owe their existence to stupid people. |
That'd be "yes" to my first question, then, so far as you're concerned? |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Not necessarily—as an isolated crime, it's about on par with any other senseless mass killing. The "additionally disturbing" part for me was what it represented and what the aim was. Does that make it more of an atrocity? I'm not sure. I guess it depends on how you define these things.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thebaldfacts
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
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| David wrote: | | Not necessarily—as an isolated crime, it's about on par with any other senseless mass killing. The "additionally disturbing" part for me was what it represented and what the aim was. Does that make it more of an atrocity? I'm not sure. I guess it depends on how you define these things. |
David, you are tieing yourself up in knots here. On par with any other senseless mass killing, yet additionally disturbing was the aim. Can't be senseless mass killing if it has an aim?
Can we just leave it at the murder of innocents is always an atrocity and don't try to qualify it in any way, whether it be students at a university, planes being flown into mountains or governments murdering their own citizens in their own killing fields. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| thebaldfacts wrote: | | David wrote: | | Not necessarily—as an isolated crime, it's about on par with any other senseless mass killing. The "additionally disturbing" part for me was what it represented and what the aim was. Does that make it more of an atrocity? I'm not sure. I guess it depends on how you define these things. |
David, you are tieing yourself up in knots here. On par with any other senseless mass killing, yet additionally disturbing was the aim. Can't be senseless mass killing if it has an aim?
Can we just leave it at the murder of innocents is always an atrocity and don't try to qualify it in any way, whether it be students at a university, planes being flown into mountains or governments murdering their own citizens in their own killing fields. |
Bravo
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| thebaldfacts wrote: | | David wrote: | | Not necessarily—as an isolated crime, it's about on par with any other senseless mass killing. The "additionally disturbing" part for me was what it represented and what the aim was. Does that make it more of an atrocity? I'm not sure. I guess it depends on how you define these things. |
David, you are tieing yourself up in knots here. On par with any other senseless mass killing, yet additionally disturbing was the aim. Can't be senseless mass killing if it has an aim?
Can we just leave it at the murder of innocents is always an atrocity and don't try to qualify it in any way, whether it be students at a university, planes being flown into mountains or governments murdering their own citizens in their own killing fields. |
OK, let me throw this over to you: is a misdirected military attack that kills 200 people by mistake less of an atrocity than a terrorist attack targeting a pro-democracy protest that kills the same number? Why or why not?
And is either more of a tragedy than if 200 people are killed in an earthquake?
That is, does intent make things worse, and if so, do some intentions matter more than others?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Of course intent s worse
And yes there's degrees of bad
Gees common sense says that
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Which completely contradicts the post you just "bravoed".
I don't think I'm the one who's confused here. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Which completely contradicts the post you just "bravoed".
I don't think I'm the one who's confused here. |
No it doesn't and yes you are.
Simple. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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thebaldfacts
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
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| David wrote: | | thebaldfacts wrote: | | David wrote: | | Not necessarily—as an isolated crime, it's about on par with any other senseless mass killing. The "additionally disturbing" part for me was what it represented and what the aim was. Does that make it more of an atrocity? I'm not sure. I guess it depends on how you define these things. |
David, you are tieing yourself up in knots here. On par with any other senseless mass killing, yet additionally disturbing was the aim. Can't be senseless mass killing if it has an aim?
Can we just leave it at the murder of innocents is always an atrocity and don't try to qualify it in any way, whether it be students at a university, planes being flown into mountains or governments murdering their own citizens in their own killing fields. |
OK, let me throw this over to you: is a misdirected military attack that kills 200 people by mistake less of an atrocity than a terrorist attack targeting a pro-democracy protest that kills the same number? Why or why not?
And is either more of a tragedy than if 200 people are killed in an earthquake?
That is, does intent make things worse, and if so, do some intentions matter more than others? |
David that is exactly the point. The murder of innocents is what makes it so bad. Whether they be at a university, church, school whatever is irrelevant, it is all equally disturbing. The atrocity is the murder of the innocents.
You are correct if you are trying to say that the intention to murder makes something worse than in the case of natural disasters and accidents, in which case I would agree. |
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thebaldfacts
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
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| think positive wrote: | Of course intent s worse
And yes there's degrees of bad
Gees common sense says that |
Be careful think positive, do we really want to introduce common sense to VPT😀 |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| We have never talked about it before. |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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| thebaldfacts wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Of course intent s worse
And yes there's degrees of bad
Gees common sense says that |
Be careful think positive, do we really want to introduce common sense to VPT😀 |
Doesn't make any difference, those posts will be deleted anyway
_________________
I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| thebaldfacts wrote: | | David wrote: | OK, let me throw this over to you: is a misdirected military attack that kills 200 people by mistake less of an atrocity than a terrorist attack targeting a pro-democracy protest that kills the same number? Why or why not?
And is either more of a tragedy than if 200 people are killed in an earthquake?
That is, does intent make things worse, and if so, do some intentions matter more than others? |
David that is exactly the point. The murder of innocents is what makes it so bad. Whether they be at a university, church, school whatever is irrelevant, it is all equally disturbing. The atrocity is the murder of the innocents.
You are correct if you are trying to say that the intention to murder makes something worse than in the case of natural disasters and accidents, in which case I would agree. |
So a deliberate, planned murder is a worse atrocity than an accident that kills the same number of people. If so, why is it such a stretch to suggest that some mass murders are worse than other mass murders?
I've had a think about this, and I reckon the answer is quite simple. Take a consequentialist approach, and the main harm is still the killing of innocents. But think about the impact on the rest of the society in an isolated incident as occurred to a targeted attack intended to scare people away from pursuing an education.
The first = x number of people dead, friends and relatives grieving
The second = x number of people dead, friends and relatives grieving, an entire society living in fear.
At least in theory, I think it's fair to say that the second is worse than the first.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | Which completely contradicts the post you just "bravoed".
I don't think I'm the one who's confused here. |
No it doesn't and yes you are.
Simple. |
OK, perhaps you can explain to me how these two statements are not contradictory.
| thebaldfacts wrote: | | Can we just leave it at the murder of innocents is always an atrocity and don't try to qualify it in any way |
| think positive wrote: | Of course intent s worse
And yes there's degrees of bad
Gees common sense says that |
I agree with think positive Mark II, by the way.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Doc63 wrote: | | thebaldfacts wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Of course intent s worse
And yes there's degrees of bad
Gees common sense says that |
Be careful think positive, do we really want to introduce common sense to VPT😀 |
Doesn't make any difference, those posts will be deleted anyway |
Heheheheheheheheheehehehehehehehe!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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