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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ He's right though, kind of. The symbol of the church is an instrument of capital punishment, and one of its holiest images (at least for Catholics) is a dead (or dying) Jesus on a cross.
Really, all religions that preach the existence of an afterlife—and, more importantly, claim that this life is just a training drill for the next—are death cults.
3, I don't think the writers of the Koran wanted to avoid a "personality cult" around Muhammad; indeed, I think you'll find that they very much have created one (just like Christianity, Buddhism, etc.). I'm under the impression that the reason the Koran forbids depiction of Mohammed is the same reason that some protestants oppose depiction of Jesus—they consider it idolatry. Both Christianity and Islam (as well as Judaism) emerged in regions where pantheism and graven images of gods were common; this was one way of differentiating themselves from their competitors.
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| think positive wrote: | Gees who's getting your wrath next?
Really, you need to degenerate Christians like that?
There is no comparison between modern day Christians and modern day ISIS |
I am a practicing (well sort of) atheist but I wasn't attacking Christianity!
I was attacking our P.M for throwing around such inflammatory remarks.
To me these cheap scare tactics smack of hatred, bigotry and hypocracy!
What the world is trying to due is take a calm measured approach while our tone speaks of D-Day style landing in Syria!
Nothing he says does ANYBODY any good!
http://www.petermartin.com.au/
Be careful when reading the Intergenerational Report. It's meant to scare you
What does a government do when it's lost all authority? It tries to scare people, big time.
Last week it was national security. Abbott used the word "threat" 16 times in 24 minutes. He used "death cult" 9 times. 
It is time our P.M stopped playing the "boogieman card" and started acting like the statesman he so desperately wants to seen as!
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ No disagreement on that. Pathetic stuff from the government, really, and the Pavlovian response is depressingly predictable.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| 3.14159 wrote: | Yes I agree!
The looting of treasures from the dawn of civilization (by Daesh fanatics) was a crime that can never be undone.
It's true a few statues were destroyed but it is barely a drop in the ocean when compared to the looting that happened in 2003, under the very noses of the US Army (who did little or nothing to stop it).
| Quote: |
Heartbroken Over History
Scholars around the world warned the Pentagon of the museum's significance. Now, they are angry and heartbroken.
"I thought we made the case enough with the military that the museum was going to be the No.1 protected site in Iraq," said McGuire Gibson, an archeologist at the University of Chicago. "And I had been part of a group that had worked up a series of locations for over 5,000 sites."
Gibson said the losses go beyond the Iraq National Museum's own holdings to include artifacts brought in from other parts of the country. Some Iraqi curators believed the artifacts would be safest in Baghdad.
"The fact there … were soldiers about 100 yards away while the looting was taking place for two days was shocking and was just indescribable and maddening," said Gibson, who is president of the American Association for Research in Baghdad and the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute.
The reverberations are worldwide. Three members of a White House cultural committee resigned Thursday out of disappointment that the United States failed to protect Iraq's historical treasures.
And Irving Finkle, a curator with the British museum, said he was "devastated."
"It was like being hit in the stomach with one of those iron bars. I could not believe in this day and age, such a thing would happen," he said.
Gus Van Beek, curator of old world archeology at the Smithsonian Institution of Washington, said he nearly cried.
"My goodness, we have nothing compared to what they have," he said. "They have huge text — huge pictures and stone of battles that were fought. They have gold artifacts, silver artifacts, beautiful daggers and other aspects of warfare. And jewelry — jewels abounded."
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=128469
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No matter how old and how significant they are it's terrible seeing ancient artefacts destroyed like they were last week by ISIS.
The US' inability and ineptness to prevent the looting of artefacts when they were in Iraq is thoroughly disappointing and speaks of their ineptness when over there but again the blame lies towards looters who indeed committed acts of thefts for their own personal gain when this happened as the article you linked suggest. The US is only at fault for it's inept ability to stop such practices occurring in the first place but they didn't cause these artefacts to be destroyed in the first place.
| 3.14159 wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | So ISIS is now not only persecuting Assyrian Christians but now they're trying to wipe out and erase their history from the city of Mosul. |
Before you start ramping up the rhetoric (again) you should get your facts straight!
Those statues (and the Assyrian Empire) predate Christianity by many thousands of years!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria |
You cannot deny that Assyrian Christians and other religious minorities in Mosul are being severely persecuted by ISIS and its fellow Sunni Militia groups. Yes I'm aware that some of those statues pre-date Christianity but I was interconnecting the fact that Assyrian Christians are still being persecuted and victimised by ISIS and in the process ISIS is not only erasing the history of Assyrian Christians but also the Assyrian and Akkadian Empires through the process of ethnic cleansing.
On top of destroying ancient artefacts ISIS has also destroyed Mosul libraries and universities by burning thousands of books and manuscripts and they've caused destruction and blown up Shiite mosques and churches in Mosul which demonstrates that this group shows no regard for anyone outside its ideology and belief system and that they're targeting all sorts of group. Most Christians in Mosul have fled now because they were either given the opportunity to convert to Sunni Islamism, pay a religious tax known as the Jizya as stated in the Quran in 9:29 or to face death.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-burns-thousands-of-rare-books-and-manuscripts-from-mosuls-libraries-10068408.html
By the way what on earth are you on about when you say I'm ramping up supposed rhetoric again! These are clear facts I've stated and I admit to my early error that I didn't articulate my post as well as I should have regarding the difference between the persecution of Assyrian Christians and the erasing and elimination of ancient artefacts dating back to the Assyrian and Akkadian empires which as a matter of fact I did mention in my other post.
| 3.14159 wrote: | | Jezza wrote: |
In terms of the Charlie Hebdo shootings in France I find the figures that more than a quarter of British Muslims sympathise with such actions as concerning. It demonstrates the ultra-conservative nature of the Islamic religion if it believes that such actions are somewhat justified or are met with sympathy all because their prophet was depicted in a negative light. By reacting like this, these 27% of Muslims who harbour such views should be questioned further by the general public and met with strong criticism for it's lack of toleration of people's expression even if they may feel deeply offended by such a depiction of their prophet they saw from Charlie Hebdo. |
In a negative light???
The mere depiction of the Profit is what they are angry about and I don't blame them!
I remember not to long ago when a certain western artwork sparked similar feelings of anger and death threats!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/18/us-france-art-idUSTRE73H4JR20110418
"Several people have called saying, 'If you open, you're dead,'" one museum worker told Reuters. "We're nervous and we have asked for protection from the police."
On Saturday, the museum was forced to close after a demonstration against the artist's work drew some 800 protesters . The bishop of Avignon had earlier demanded that the museum remove the controversial photograph.
Most recently, several of Serrano's works were vandalized
in 2007 during an exhibit at a Swedish art gallery.
Your a bright young man Jezza.
You'd be even brighter if you opened both your mind and your eyes before you open your mouth! |
What a load of rubbish!
I know that Islam prohibits any depictions of the Prophet Muhammad but Islam also prohibits apostasy so I suppose we should respect such a law or constraint even though the punishment is death. If Muslims feel outraged or deeply offended by cartoons of their prophet in a magazine like Charlie Hebdo and the depiction of the prophet we saw in Denmark a few years ago then they have every right to hold negative and angry attitudes about these depictions.
However they have no right to go around intimidating people who do compile such depictions for satirical purposes and threaten those who make depictions of their prophet in general. Freedom of Speech as we know it is a fundamental right that needs to be protected at all costs and it was always based on the idea of not protecting popular and everyday speech necessarily but to protect unpopular and offensive speech. What we saw at Charlie Hebdo was an attack on freedom of expression and everyone who believes in such a fundamental right should be deeply outraged by what they witnessed in Paris.
So I suppose since you don't blame some Muslims for their angry reactions I'm going assume you didn't have any criticism or concern over the way the Supreme Leader in Iran at the time in Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa to all Muslims to kill Salman Rushdie in 1989 for his novel called 'The Satanic Verses' which many Muslims believe was a mockery of their faith. Such reactions were outrageous and hysterical and you cannot blame people from non-Muslim backgrounds questioning such reactions and having such reservations of the Islamic religion and ideology if this is the way followers react to a novel or a cartoon depicting their prophet for example. Since you understand their the reactions of Muslims over Charlie Hebdo's provocative depictions of the prophet Muhuammad I suppose you feel a sense of sympathy over what the Charlie Hebdo shootings did. After all they were reportedly yelling out loudly that they 'avenged the prophet' after being no doubt deeply offended by the cartoons and being motivated by this reason on top of other issues to attack the cartoonists in France.
The moral of the story is that nothing should be exempt of criticism whether that's a religion, ideology or a broader idea that may not involve religion and politics necessarily. When you see a minority of Muslims carrying signs in the streets of Western cities saying "behead those who insult the prophet" you wonder why people feel disconcerting to question Islam and Islamism in more thorough and honest detail. Seeing signs like the one below is very unsettling for many people who are non-Muslims but are afraid to exercise their right to freedom of speech out of fear of offending some Muslims and the PC brigade.
Your comparison to Christianity is laughable. I know many apologists for Islam love to compare it to Christianity and there's no question that Christianity has deep and underlying flaws that need to be openly criticised and condemned but the examples you cite about anti-abortion violence isn't comparable. Most people are divided on the abortion issue but you don't see an overwhelming majority of anti-abortionists going around threatening those who disagree with them or attend protests saying they'll hurt anyone who doesn't agree with them or are encouraged by higher forces to commit violence on innocent people that don't align with their views necessarily like we saw with Iran and the Ayatollah after the Rushdie affair.
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Last edited by Jezza on Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Well done jezza
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | It is time our P.M stopped playing the "boogieman card" and started acting like a statesman! |
He wouldn't know how. I am waiting for a statement that a terrorist group was responsible for torching Jeff the fibreglass Dinosaur at Palmers Coolum resort.
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Too long, life's too short so I didn't reading much of it.!
I'm sick of trading justifications and examples.
I am NOT a Muslim apologist!
I am an atheist that regards all religions as little more than faerie stories designed to dupe the gullible into handing over their hard earned money and lives...(hell, even bush-rangers gave you an either or choice)
Instead of ranting on about the beastly Mussies and their "oh so uncivilized ways", how about you come up with a plan of action to deal with what is essentially a lack of tolerance, compassion and understanding between the 2/3 religions that doesn't involve military force, detention/re-education centres and the like.
Organised religion (and it's total lack of tolerance for other faiths) has haunted humanity from the it's very beginning and will not stop while intolerant attitudes like yours are in the ascendancy!
Christianity is the religion of love, tolerance, turn the other cheek and forgiveness.
I've seen bugger all of those basic tenants of Christianity in any of your posts on this subject!
(I there-fore assume your one of those "not true Christians" Pa Marmo mentioned).
...
That reminds me, I wasn't comparing Christianity with Islam.
I was merely questioning Pa's statement that the worst Extremist Christians get up too is a strong dislike for same sex-wedding cakes.
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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So all of a sudden the question of my religion comes up because you think I'm lacking tolerance for others whereas Pa Marmo says that Christians are loving and tolerant. If Pa Marmo believes that then good luck to him and I don't begrudge him to hold those views.
For what it's worth I'm an agnostic even though I believe God doesn't exist but due to a lack of evidence I can't prove that God doesn't exist just like a believer can't prove that God does exist. Under Census I would be identified as Greek Orthodox as I still celebrate Easter and Christmas and I only attend church for weddings and funerals otherwise I'm a non-practising Greek Orthodox person who holds an agnostic viewpoint on religion and frankly I'm happy with my current lifestyle as it is. I do however respect that older relatives of mine still practice it and believe in it far more than I do and ever will.
In regards to my criticisms (or as you say my 'rantings') of Islam or Islamism even though you say you didn't read my post for the reasons of it being too long why shouldn't it should be criticised and questioned just like any other idea that exists in the world. The solution to these problems are vastly complicated and will require hard work and resolve from all parties from the Islamic community to non-Islamic communities. Multiple issues would have to be solved here when we're talking in the context of ISIS and it's control of parts of Syria and Iraq. The issues of sectarianism, Wahhabism, cultural and border divide and many more other internal political issues all need to be considered when discussing this vastly complex topic and trying to reach a solution to this problem.
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| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | ^ No disagreement on that. Pathetic stuff from the government, really, and the Pavlovian response is depressingly predictable. |
Any consideration for the fact that Abbott and other western leaders are deliberately doing exactly what you do, and try to steer away from the connection with islam?
The whole "death cult" thing is a way of focusing on ISIS in isolation without bringing in the fact that they're Islamic extremists.
FFS, on this point you and Abbott seem to be in perfect harmony.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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It's certainly true that you'll find extremists in lots of places. There was a bloke called the Unabomber who seemed to think that the Green cause was worth a few deaths. The question is largely about the density of extremists attached to one cause or another, and the likelihood that you'll get killed by adherents of one religion or another, because you'll probably find a few murderers attached to home baking if you research hard enough.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Quite right- I almost didn't survive my mother's cooking. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Jezza wrote: | So all of a sudden the question of my religion comes up because you think I'm lacking tolerance for others whereas Pa Marmo says that Christians are loving and tolerant. If Pa Marmo believes that then good luck to him and I don't begrudge him to hold those views.
For what it's worth I'm an agnostic even though I believe God doesn't exist but due to a lack of evidence I can't prove that God doesn't exist just like a believer can't prove that God does exist. Under Census I would be identified as Greek Orthodox as I still celebrate Easter and Christmas and I only attend church for weddings and funerals otherwise I'm a non-practising Greek Orthodox person who holds an agnostic viewpoint on religion and frankly I'm happy with my current lifestyle as it is. I do however respect that older relatives of mine still practice it and believe in it far more than I do and ever will.
In regards to my criticisms (or as you say my 'rantings') of Islam or Islamism even though you say you didn't read my post for the reasons of it being too long why shouldn't it should be criticised and questioned just like any other idea that exists in the world. The solution to these problems are vastly complicated and will require hard work and resolve from all parties from the Islamic community to non-Islamic communities. Multiple issues would have to be solved here when we're talking in the context of ISIS and it's control of parts of Syria and Iraq. The issues of sectarianism, Wahhabism, cultural and border divide and many more other internal political issues all need to be considered when discussing this vastly complex topic and trying to reach a solution to this problem. |
As usual a well thought out response with no need to attack anyone. We can all learn a lot from this fine young man.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| think positive wrote: | [quote="Jezza"]So all of a sudden the question of my religion comes up because you think I'm lacking tolerance for others whereas Pa Marmo says that Christians are loving and tolerant. If Pa Marmo believes that then good luck to him and I don't begrudge him to hold those views.
For what it's worth I'm an agnostic even though I believe God doesn't exist but due to a lack of evidence I can't prove that God doesn't exist just like a believer can't prove that God does exist. Under Census I would be identified as Greek Orthodox as I still celebrate Easter and Christmas and I only attend church for weddings and funerals otherwise I'm a non-practising Greek Orthodox person who holds an agnostic viewpoint on religion and frankly I'm happy with my current lifestyle as it is. I do however respect that older relatives of mine still practice it and believe in it far more than I do and ever will.
In regards to my criticisms (or as you say my 'rantings') of Islam or Islamism even though you say you didn't read my post for the reasons of it being too long why shouldn't it should be criticised and questioned just like any other idea that exists in the world. The solution to these problems are vastly complicated and will require hard work and resolve from all parties from the Islamic community to non-Islamic communities. Multiple issues would have to be solved here when we're talking in the context of ISIS and it's control of parts of Syria and Iraq. The issues of sectarianism, Wahhabism, cultural and border divide and many more other internal political issues all need to be considered when discussing this vastly complex topic and trying to reach a solution to this problem.[/quote]
As usual a alm well thought out response with no need to attack anyone. We can all learn a lot from this fine young man. |
Are we ever over Census he or she would be identified as Greek Orthodox as he or she celebrate Easter and Christmas? How do you like your school? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ No disagreement on that. Pathetic stuff from the government, really, and the Pavlovian response is depressingly predictable. |
Any consideration for the fact that Abbott and other western leaders are deliberately doing exactly what you do, and try to steer away from the connection with islam?
The whole "death cult" thing is a way of focusing on ISIS in isolation without bringing in the fact that they're Islamic extremists.
FFS, on this point you and Abbott seem to be in perfect harmony. |
Hehe too much logic Stui, well said
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| stui magpie wrote: |
The whole "death cult" thing is a way of focusing on ISIS in isolation without bringing in the fact that they're Islamic extremists.
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| tony AbbottfacebookSept 14 2014! wrote: |
The ISIL death cult threatens the people of Iraq, the region and the wider world.
The conflict has reached out to Australia, with at least 60 Australians fighting with ISIL and other terrorist groups and another 100 or so supporting these Islamic extremists.
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I can't help but be impressed with your total grasp of the Tony Abbott "say one thing, but mean another" school of rhetoric!!!
Bravo!!! |
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