Ban on Cage Fighting
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| 1061 wrote: | [quote="think positive"][quote="David"][quote="watt price tully"][quote="think positive"]for someone who believes strongly in animal rights its no where near the same level, not in the same stratosphere[/quote]
You're just being too literal. I was drawing attention to aspects that are the same. Nuffink more & nuffink less. If you want to make an issue of the tissue that's your prerogative. I told you my view & intention.
If you choose to take a particular view about that then that's your choice although I see that as a literalist point of view & wrong when trying to place your interpretation of what I wrote.
I'll break it down:
1. Cages - Both used for animals & people in fighting
2. Cages - The theatre of using cages
3. Cages - Gambling & deriving pleasure from brutality
4. Cages - sadism in both people & animals
Therein lies the similarities off the top of my head.
The obvious differences:
Power: The animals have no choice (of course) & exploitation
I'm referring to the similarities. You're referring to the differences.
This doesn't exclude me from valuing animal welfare as much as the next person.[/quote]
But have you considered that the [i]problem[/i] with cockfighting is not actually the (perhaps sadistic) pleasure that viewers derive from seeing blood and mayhem, but the cruel treatment of animals who have no choice in the matter? That otherwise, there wouldn't be an issue with it?
I don't know. Perhaps this desire to see violence and suffering is just part of our animal natures. Perhaps it's better to give it a safe vicarious outlet—through movies and blood sports—rather than holding it in.[/quote]
ill second that, but makes sure those blood sports involve fully compliant humans only!![/quote]
Oh I dunno about that, compliant or not Cage Fighting would be huge in Guantanamo. I'd put my money on the one in Orange. |
I remember you told me his or her view intention? |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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I love the justification for the cage as it's an OHS issue. 
Despite the rhetoric from both sides of the argument, the sport is here to stay. Unfortunately there is a market for those love watch two people beat the crap out of each other. Nothing has change since the Roman days.
Whether violence breeds more violence is debatable. They said the same thing about the three stooges when I was young. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Wokko wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Mate, you're making the same mistake that others do. The sport is NOT banned in victoria, only the chain link fence is banned because it's not a good look. |
Rubbish. No mistake whatever. It is not a sport, it's brutal violence and just like cockfighting and street fights, it should not be tolerated by any civilised society. Andrews is nuts to back this disgusting leap into the barbaric past. |
Your opinion is not some sacrosanct universal truth. Your arrogance combined with your lack of knowledge is astounding. Your lack of respect towards the men and women who show enormous courage, skill, dedication and talent to become the best at this sport is disgusting, degrading and insulting. Watching the work it takes to even get to the lowest levels in combat sports, having trained with the men and women who do and seen their sacrifices just so they can compete in the sport they love has shown me that petty, insulting, small minded men like you are never, ever the ones who will climb into a cage, a ring or even onto a grappling mat to compete. You will only ever snipe and belittle from the sidelines from some sense of inflated self worth and importance.
To compare a martial artist to a $£$%^%%$ cock fight?? Get the **** out of here. |
So a violent bloodsport thug is actually a fine and decent bloke because he had to work hard to get better at being a violent bloodsport thug?
Yer, right.
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | Disclosure: Big MMA fan and martial artist myself.
First, the sport isn't banned, what's banned is the chainlink fence enclosure that is used to ensure the safety of the fighters. MMA includes a large element of grappling; fighting on the ground using wrestling and submission holds. When fights hit the ground near the edge of the 'arena' in the cage the fighters are kept secure, in the ring that is used in Victoria currently they can fall out and cause significant injuries either to themselves or ringside viewers.
The sport is not 'brutal' or whatever other 'think of the children' handwringing phrase you want to use. It is a contest between two consenting adults using various martial arts styles. The rules are very strict and fighter safety is paramount. There is less risk of acquired brain injury than in boxing as once a fighter is knocked out or incapable of 'intelligently defending oneself' the fight is stopped. In boxing there is a 10 count to regain enough faculty to continue fighting.
On the issue of thuggery, anyone who has been around martial arts or MMA knows the fighters are the very antithesis of the bogan street fighter. Martial arts is always about respect, looking after your opponent and not being a douchebag in the gym. I would feel far safer in a bar full of MMA fighters than footballers. This ties in to the 'violence in the community' theme. Anyone interested in MMA fighting isn't going out to king hit people outside a strip joint, they're joining a martial arts gym/dojo/school and learning the techniques and philosophies of martial arts.
I am tired of the constant ignorance surrounding this sport, if it's not your cup of tea then that's fine. Don't participate, don't watch and leave those of us who do alone. Before making that judgement I would suggest two things, watch a complete UFC event from start to finish. Particularly if you are a boxing fan already or interested in the martial arts. Secondly go to an MMA gym or even a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, judo or Muai Thai school. Meet the people engaged in this sport and see that by and large they are brave, respectable and honourable people. |
+1 |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Maybe you should get some sleep now, Museman. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| King Monkey wrote: | Agree 1,000,000% with Wokko.
Difference being, that I'm a massive boxing fan rather than the "multi-style" nature of MMA/UFC, and I don't enjoy fighters being attacked after they've been grounded. But I don't begrudge anyone that does enjoy it, and nobody is actually forced to participate.
Love the technical aspects of a boxing match - give me a 12 round "chess match" style fight anyday, over a brutal 3 round war without any displays of competent defence ending in an eye-catching KO.
I love the sweet science of Boxing, love the fact that you are equipped with exactly the same means to win or lose as your opponent; 2 gloves and nothing else to attack & defend with, love the technicalities of the rules (when officiated properly, incompetent referees get weeded out pretty quickly), love the discipline and respect of being in and around a boxing gym (as opposed to a "fitness" gym where roided up wankers prance around looking at themselves in the mirror), love the fact that a bloke (R.I.P. Mr. Brockton, and kudos to others like you) can gather troubled local youths and teach them values that will stop them going down the "wrong" path............
Complete ignorance from anyone who advocates banning any of these pursuits because someone (who knows what they're getting into by the way), has a chance of getting hurt. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks by that far that you can't quantify it. |
I boxed for quite a few years KM, it's as brutal if not more than anything MMA offers up, I watch plenty of MMA these days and it's even more technical and more of a chess match than boxing, you can win or be beaten in so my differing ways with so many different aspects it quite simply has to be more technical......
Boxing taught me some discipline, it also helped me avoid a confrontation here and there and it also shortened confrontations on occasion, it had many benefits for me, I see MMA having the same sort of benefits for todays youth, there will be wanker MMA students, there were also some idiot boxing students, there are plenty of moron students of nothing as well though...you cannot legislate based on the moronic few.
I heard the idiot on the radio yesterday describing why the cage shouldn't be allowed, he basically turned it into an argument against MMA and went on to make such completely false comments as a "free for all sport, that you can hit an opponent with any part of your anatomy at any point" wrong dickhead just plain wrong.
I would like to knock this bloke out...I would then like to see him choked out or arm barred ...then ask him which one he prefers.... |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Museman wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | Agree 1,000,000% with Wokko.
Difference being, that I'm a massive boxing fan rather than the "multi-style" nature of MMA/UFC, and I don't enjoy fighters being attacked after they've been grounded. But I don't begrudge anyone that does enjoy it, and nobody is actually forced to participate.
Love the technical aspects of a boxing match - give me a 12 round "chess match" style fight anyday, over a brutal 3 round war without any displays of competent defence ending in an eye-catching KO.
I love the sweet science of Boxing, love the fact that you are equipped with exactly the same means to win or lose as your opponent; 2 gloves and nothing else to attack & defend with, love the technicalities of the rules (when officiated properly, incompetent referees get weeded out pretty quickly), love the discipline and respect of being in and around a boxing gym (as opposed to a "fitness" gym where roided up wankers prance around looking at themselves in the mirror), love the fact that a bloke (R.I.P. Mr. Brockton, and kudos to others like you) can gather troubled local youths and teach them values that will stop them going down the "wrong" path............
Complete ignorance from anyone who advocates banning any of these pursuits because someone (who knows what they're getting into by the way), has a chance of getting hurt. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks by that far that you can't quantify it. |
I boxed for quite a few years KM, it's as brutal if not more than anything MMA offers up, I watch plenty of MMA these days and it's even more technical and more of a chess match than boxing, you can win or be beaten in so my differing ways with so many different aspects it quite simply has to be more technical......
Boxing taught me some discipline, it also helped me avoid a confrontation here and there and it also shortened confrontations on occasion, it had many benefits for me, I see MMA having the same sort of benefits for todays youth, there will be wanker MMA students, there were also some idiot boxing students, there are plenty of moron students of nothing as well though...you cannot legislate based on the moronic few.
I heard the idiot on the radio yesterday describing why the cage shouldn't be allowed, he basically turned it into an argument against MMA and went on to make such completely false comments as a "free for all sport, that you can hit an opponent with any part of your anatomy at any point" wrong dickhead just plain wrong.
I would like to knock this bloke out...I would then like to see him choked out or arm barred ...then ask him which one he prefers.... |
I've been both hit in the head (never been KO'd, must have a decent chin  ) and choked out. Being choked out is like having one of those little dreams when you first fall asleep then you suddenly wake up and people are standing around you saying "are you 'right mate".
Being hit in the head is fkn horrible, being choked out is kinda pleasant (after the initial panic that makes you tap out). I'd rather get choked out every day for a week then punched in the head. It's why I never actually took up MMA competitively and prefer grappling, I really don't like getting hit in the head. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Post subject: Re: Ban on Cage Fighting | |
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| stui magpie wrote: | is ridiculous , as are the reasons for it. It's all about the aesthetics of the 'cage"
Seriously? The sport of Mixed Martial Arts is legal in Victoria, as long as they fight in a boxing ring which is actually unsafe compared to the fenced in octagon that MMA normally use.
When you hear the pollies and others talk about why cage fighting should stay banned they talk about it as though it's the sport they've banned not the arena it's fought in. Way to utterly miss the point.
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It's a defacto ban. The higher levels of the sport are conducted in a cage; banning the cage means no UFC in Victoria, for instance.
If the pollies or community groups are concerned about the brutality of it then they are hypocritical given that the sport is not banned. If they're concerned about the image of it and it's impact on the community then that's not hypocritical, banning the cage does keep the more popular events out of the state and limits any effect on our collective psyche.
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King Monkey
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: On a journey to seek the scriptures of enlightenment....
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| Wokko wrote: | | Museman wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | Agree 1,000,000% with Wokko.
Difference being, that I'm a massive boxing fan rather than the "multi-style" nature of MMA/UFC, and I don't enjoy fighters being attacked after they've been grounded. But I don't begrudge anyone that does enjoy it, and nobody is actually forced to participate.
Love the technical aspects of a boxing match - give me a 12 round "chess match" style fight anyday, over a brutal 3 round war without any displays of competent defence ending in an eye-catching KO.
I love the sweet science of Boxing, love the fact that you are equipped with exactly the same means to win or lose as your opponent; 2 gloves and nothing else to attack & defend with, love the technicalities of the rules (when officiated properly, incompetent referees get weeded out pretty quickly), love the discipline and respect of being in and around a boxing gym (as opposed to a "fitness" gym where roided up wankers prance around looking at themselves in the mirror), love the fact that a bloke (R.I.P. Mr. Brockton, and kudos to others like you) can gather troubled local youths and teach them values that will stop them going down the "wrong" path............
Complete ignorance from anyone who advocates banning any of these pursuits because someone (who knows what they're getting into by the way), has a chance of getting hurt. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks by that far that you can't quantify it. |
I boxed for quite a few years KM, it's as brutal if not more than anything MMA offers up, I watch plenty of MMA these days and it's even more technical and more of a chess match than boxing, you can win or be beaten in so my differing ways with so many different aspects it quite simply has to be more technical......
Boxing taught me some discipline, it also helped me avoid a confrontation here and there and it also shortened confrontations on occasion, it had many benefits for me, I see MMA having the same sort of benefits for todays youth, there will be wanker MMA students, there were also some idiot boxing students, there are plenty of moron students of nothing as well though...you cannot legislate based on the moronic few.
I heard the idiot on the radio yesterday describing why the cage shouldn't be allowed, he basically turned it into an argument against MMA and went on to make such completely false comments as a "free for all sport, that you can hit an opponent with any part of your anatomy at any point" wrong dickhead just plain wrong.
I would like to knock this bloke out...I would then like to see him choked out or arm barred ...then ask him which one he prefers.... |
I've been both hit in the head (never been KO'd, must have a decent chin ) and choked out. Being choked out is like having one of those little dreams when you first fall asleep then you suddenly wake up and people are standing around you saying "are you 'right mate".
Being hit in the head is fkn horrible, being choked out is kinda pleasant (after the initial panic that makes you tap out). I'd rather get choked out every day for a week then punched in the head. It's why I never actually took up MMA competitively and prefer grappling, I really don't like getting hit in the head. |
Sorry, that's kinda come across like I was comparing the 2 sports in the bolded quote - I was just stating I prefer a technical boxing match over an all-out war where the 2 boxers are throwing punches without much defence.
Some MMA bouts can be too technical for the uninitiated too - I can sort of appreciate but don't really understand the intricacies of the inch by inch positioning whilst trying to gain the upper hand in a grapple.
Another major difference - protective gear.
Far less chance of being hurt by a single punch with a boxing glove on than one of those little knuckle protecting half-gloves.
Most people forget that most levels of the sport (boxing that is) use headgear also. You're only being punched to the head directly if you're good enough to turn professional.
But again, people competing in these sports are doing so of their own volition - for some it's their only meal ticket.
_________________
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Grow stick, grow.
Fly cloud, fly.
Oh you are a dee-mon, I love to fiiight." |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Those big gloves are only to protect against cuts and broken hands, the blunt force is no different. In fact there's an argument that they prevent outright KOs by distributing force, meaning the fighter takes more punishment.
The grappling side of things is a bit of a mystery to those who don't do it or understand it but once you get even a rudimentry understanding then it's intriguing. I've had to learn the striking nuance like footwork, counters, head movement etc. The fans who like to watch bloody brawls are called the 'just bleed' crowd and are looked down on by educated fans.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| King Monkey wrote: | | for some it's their only meal ticket. |
And that's where we potentially get into the realm of exploitation. I still don't think it should be banned, though; perhaps just better regulated.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | Those big gloves are only to protect against cuts and broken hands, the blunt force is no different. In fact there's an argument that they prevent outright KOs by distributing force, meaning the fighter takes more punishment.
The grappling side of things is a bit of a mystery to those who don't do it or understand it but once you get even a rudimentry understanding then it's intriguing. I've had to learn the striking nuance like footwork, counters, head movement etc. The fans who like to watch bloody brawls are called the 'just bleed' crowd and are looked down on by educated fans.
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That's exactly right. There is a lot about the gloves causing far more damage compared to bare knuckle boxing etc.
With respect to grappling you should give Judo, Hapkido and or Jui Jitsu if you're not doing that already. Learning how to fall then grappling & wrestling is a great art. I wish I did wrestling as a young fella. Really interesting. Combine that with yoga & the range of movement can be handy when wrestling / grappling.
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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I don't think the participant welfare argument holds any water in wanting to ban MMA (not just talking cages, because that is clearly nonsense in the context of welfare given it's safer than ropes). Boxing is legal and I suspect it's more damaging on competitors, given the greater length of bouts and the exclusive focus on striking, much of it to the head.
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Well done boys! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | Those big gloves are only to protect against cuts and broken hands, the blunt force is no different. In fact there's an argument that they prevent outright KOs by distributing force, meaning the fighter takes more punishment.
The grappling side of things is a bit of a mystery to those who don't do it or understand it but once you get even a rudimentry understanding then it's intriguing. I've had to learn the striking nuance like footwork, counters, head movement etc. The fans who like to watch bloody brawls are called the 'just bleed' crowd and are looked down on by educated fans.
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That's exactly right. There is a lot about the gloves causing far more damage compared to bare knuckle boxing etc.
With respect to grappling you should give Judo, Hapkido and or Jui Jitsu if you're not doing that already. Learning how to fall then grappling & wrestling is a great art. I wish I did wrestling as a young fella. Really interesting. Combine that with yoga & the range of movement can be handy when wrestling / grappling. |
Yeah I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which is an off shoot of Judo. Rather than focusing on throws like Judo which is 90% standing it focuses on the ground work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu
Love it. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | | for some it's their only meal ticket. |
And that's where we potentially get into the realm of exploitation. I still don't think it should be banned, though; perhaps just better regulated. |
How would you regulate it then David? |
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