Burqa
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| 1061 wrote: | | How many hours footage did they shoot for what is basically a short film and does anyone care who funded it? |
Look, it's just the highlighting of something positive which is of value here.
Being bombarded with ongoing negative stories is extremely oppressive for minorities. Think of the damage the relentless sense of siege must do to the target group's psychology. Even if it's not much of an "experiment", its wide reception would still bring some relief.
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| pietillidie wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | How many hours footage did they shoot for what is basically a short film and does anyone care who funded it? |
Look, it's just the highlighting of something positive which is of value here.
Being bombarded with ongoing negative stories is extremely oppressive for minorities. Think of the damage the relentless sense of siege must do to the target group's psychology. Even if it's not much of an "experiment", its wide reception would still bring some relief. |
spot on.
I thought the reactions were great, they were incredulous, and no one backed the idiot.
sometimes its just nice to except the good stuff, even if its only a small thing. it can only spread good stuff, cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: |
It's not about my view, it's about your view; I don't have a special position on Muslim clothing because it doesn't stand out as especially peculiar to me beyond the usual range of "peculiarities" of our species. |
Of course it's about your view as well. Your view advocates that people in Australia with a long history of conduct and values submit to having their society - the world they live in - into a postmodern laboratory where dissent on certain matters is disallowed, invalid, or an act of bad faith. This discussion, if it has any meaning, is about both our views - otherwise its not an exchange of views, it's a trial.
You may be right in that one needs to know about the lives of individual burqa-wearers to judge its meaning. However, within the symbolic structure (aka the context) of our culture, the burqa is read as an aggressive statement of power and ownership by one gender over others. If you feel that the burqa has the same meaning as jeans and a t-shirt, then i just think you're missing - or wilfully overlooking - a power and gender dynamic.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | How many hours footage did they shoot for what is basically a short film and does anyone care who funded it? |
Look, it's just the highlighting of something positive which is of value here.
Being bombarded with ongoing negative stories is extremely oppressive for minorities. Think of the damage the relentless sense of siege must do to the target group's psychology. Even if it's not much of an "experiment", its wide reception would still bring some relief. |
spot on.
I thought the reactions were great, they were incredulous, and no one backed the idiot.
sometimes its just nice to except the good stuff, even if its only a small thing. it can only spread good stuff, cheers |
It is good isn't it. Goes a way to disprove the view by many that we're all a bunch of racist pr1cks and supports the view instead that the majority are actually tolerant and inclusive.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | How many hours footage did they shoot for what is basically a short film and does anyone care who funded it? |
Look, it's just the highlighting of something positive which is of value here.
Being bombarded with ongoing negative stories is extremely oppressive for minorities. Think of the damage the relentless sense of siege must do to the target group's psychology. Even if it's not much of an "experiment", its wide reception would still bring some relief. |
spot on.
I thought the reactions were great, they were incredulous, and no one backed the idiot.
sometimes its just nice to except the good stuff, even if its only a small thing. it can only spread good stuff, cheers |
It is good isn't it. Goes a way to disprove the view by many that we're all a bunch of racist pr1cks and supports the view instead that the majority are actually tolerant and inclusive. |
yep, exactly
and by all accounts its going around the world, way better than the usual "aussies in Bali" shit!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: |
It's not about my view, it's about your view; I don't have a special position on Muslim clothing because it doesn't stand out as especially peculiar to me beyond the usual range of "peculiarities" of our species. |
Of course it's about your view as well. Your view advocates that people in Australia with a long history of conduct and values submit to having their society - the world they live in - into a postmodern laboratory where dissent on certain matters is disallowed, invalid, or an act of bad faith. This discussion, if it has any meaning, is about both our views - otherwise its not an exchange of views, it's a trial.
You may be right in that one needs to know about the lives of individual burqa-wearers to judge its meaning. However, within the symbolic structure (aka the context) of our culture, the burqa is read as an aggressive statement of power and ownership by one gender over others. If you feel that the burqa has the same meaning as jeans and a t-shirt, then i just think you're missing - or wilfully overlooking - a power and gender dynamic. |
My view doesn't advocate that. My view advocates that you define variables rationally and evidentially, or not at all; understand the subject you're pontificating over to a degree of seriousness which matches the strength of your claims; and behave consistently. They are my gods here.
For instance, you've just reverted back to this "our culture" nonsense. Which "culture"? The Postlethwaites in Camberwell, the Nguyens in Cabramatta, the Johnsons in Cairns, the Wolwyskas in the Adelaide Hills, the Djanmarras in Alice, the...? The differences are endless. Some of those people have more in common with the Jungs in Busan than with each other - and when the within-group differences are greater than the between group differences, you know you're talking nonsense.
I am just wondering why this particular human variation, extremely common on our planet both now and historically, and no less unusual or confronting than innumerable other variants in spatial proximity to you that don't occupy your mind, is cause for obsession.
And I think you misunderstand power. Where is there not a power dynamic? There is no "non-power dynamic". It's a total misreading of representative poststructuralist theory, such as Focauldian thinking, to think "power is bad"; it's a bit like thinking "gravity is bad because it makes you fall over".
That power is always everywhere and the subaltern cannot speak is the basic conclusion of 45 years of poststructuralism. The struggle is to let go of your own BS discourse, such as "our culture" in order to open "spaces of creative possibility". It's always about the war within first, not the war without, something any decent philosophy and any decent science worked out long ago.
Your struggle is you want something linear and conclusive and "right" to say. You need it to assume authority, to earn your keep. As I do, too; that's our schtick. No one takes this to ridiculous ends like the New Atheists, though, always furiously fishing for new demons and scourges, and crapping on and on about them. This is just nothing but personal immaturity and narcissism, you know.
At the end of the day you only intervene in other people's lives when and where you are really sure what's going on, like a surgeon removing a cancer acording to best knowledge (language buffoons like Hitchens often used when referring to people groups and individual lives he knew virtually nothing about). The struggle, to refer to the founding US discourse you love so much, is to deal with the immortal declaration that "all men are created equal". Or, in Korean discourse, to be sincere and speak with your true mind.
On the other hand, if you have done the work, completed the due diligence and are acting in good faith according to best practices, more power to you! The test of that is to put yourself in a virtual law court as an expert witness and see if you withstand scrutiny. Or place yourself in a virtual legal contract where your views are liable for criminal negligence. On the lives of Muslims, in particular conservative Muslim women wearing traditional religious attire, I doubt you come even vaguely close to these standards, much like the climate denial industry or pro-war machine.
That resistance aside, the rest is about generating creative possibility, a conclusion Chomsky interestingly came to long ago via the cognitive sciences and the rationalist philosophy which preceded them.
I don't think any philosophy, from Hinduism to poststructuralism, has made it past that. Not that I know of, anyhow.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| swoop42 wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | ^ the buka/burqa is the only garment that truly frightens me. |
Can't say I'm a fan of the Niqab. |
today i saw a lady in a niqab. it didn't look too threatening. really wanted to talk to her about it but i refrained.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Probably a wise choice, although of course it always depends on the tone and context. The last thing a Muslim woman in a niqab probably wants to discuss right now is her choice of attire.
I agree with you, though�never found it threatening, just strange and kind of foreign (not that that makes it in any way illegitimate).
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Good conversation. That decision-making scenario happens to me all the time (and even more now I'm in the UK in a particularly curious mindset).
But when you do get the chance to chat to people beyond the irrational layers of us/them (often one-to-one as group scenarios trigger the brain-dead zombie within us all), it's almost always warm and worthwhile, if not a bit sad because you know on leaving you're both going back into zombie land to deal with the idiot caricatures which divide us.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Do you think I should do it differently? |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^Good conversation. That decision-making scenario happens to me all the time (and even more now I'm in the UK in a particularly curious mindset).
But when you do get the chance to chat to people beyond the irrational layers of us/them (often one-to-one as group scenarios trigger the brain-dead zombie within us all), it's almost always warm and worthwhile, if not a bit sad because you know on leaving you're both going back into zombie land to deal with the idiot caricatures which divide us. |
yeah. this may sound odd but one group of people i really enjoy talking to is prostitutes. when i was holidaying in bali and also bangkok i would often talk to the prostitutes to learn about their lives and try to understand why they did what they did. had some terrific conversations.
_________________
Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| John Wren wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | ^Good conversation. That decision-making scenario happens to me all the time (and even more now I'm in the UK in a particularly curious mindset).
But when you do get the chance to chat to people beyond the irrational layers of us/them (often one-to-one as group scenarios trigger the brain-dead zombie within us all), it's almost always warm and worthwhile, if not a bit sad because you know on leaving you're both going back into zombie land to deal with the idiot caricatures which divide us. |
yeah. this may sound odd but one group of people i really enjoy talking to is prostitutes. when i was holidaying in bali and also bangkok i would often talk to the prostitutes to learn about their lives and try to understand why they did what they did. had some terrific conversations. |
Hey, me too. It's something to do for the other 25 minutes of the 30 minute booking. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| It would be nice if it was made up of only good memories. |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | ^Good conversation. That decision-making scenario happens to me all the time (and even more now I'm in the UK in a particularly curious mindset).
But when you do get the chance to chat to people beyond the irrational layers of us/them (often one-to-one as group scenarios trigger the brain-dead zombie within us all), it's almost always warm and worthwhile, if not a bit sad because you know on leaving you're both going back into zombie land to deal with the idiot caricatures which divide us. |
yeah. this may sound odd but one group of people i really enjoy talking to is prostitutes. when i was holidaying in bali and also bangkok i would often talk to the prostitutes to learn about their lives and try to understand why they did what they did. had some terrific conversations. |
Hey, me too. It's something to do for the other 25 minutes of the 30 minute booking. |
lol. you idiot. 
_________________
Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | ^Good conversation. That decision-making scenario happens to me all the time (and even more now I'm in the UK in a particularly curious mindset).
But when you do get the chance to chat to people beyond the irrational layers of us/them (often one-to-one as group scenarios trigger the brain-dead zombie within us all), it's almost always warm and worthwhile, if not a bit sad because you know on leaving you're both going back into zombie land to deal with the idiot caricatures which divide us. |
yeah. this may sound odd but one group of people i really enjoy talking to is prostitutes. when i was holidaying in bali and also bangkok i would often talk to the prostitutes to learn about their lives and try to understand why they did what they did. had some terrific conversations. |
Hey, me too. It's something to do for the other 25 minutes of the 30 minute booking. |
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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