Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Free Universities.

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern
 
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
1061 



Joined: 06 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:02 pm
Post subject: Free Universities.Reply with quote

Abbott and Hockey would roll in their graves.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4213550.ece

Quote:

David Charter Berlin
Published at 12:01AM, September 22 2014

All German universities will be free of charge when term starts next week after fees were abandoned in Lower Saxony, the last of seven states to charge.

“Tuition fees are socially unjust,” said Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator for science in Hamburg, which scrapped charges in 2012. “They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”


Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:47 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, particularly Hockey:

http://youtu.be/nR5FG2MSUv4

I agree with the German position, by the way, and hope that there's some chance we can return to that model in the future.

_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
sixpoints 



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:34 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Christopher Pyne was on Q&A and compared our uni costs to other nations in the "Anglosphere". He kept saying compared to others in the Anglosphere we are still relatively cheap.
Anglosphere??
Is that part of the atmosphere? Are uni costs increasing due to global warming?
No way will we be compared to those ruddy German blighters, not when we are part of the Anglosphere!!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:14 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is clearly a case for some charge, given the cost to the taxpayer and the utility to the "consumer". But there are also great, positive externalities to the community, especially as regards STEM subjects. The value of those externalities should be borne substantially by the community, and i think fees should be substantially lower.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:34 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, How ironic that an article about the good socialist ideal of free uni education is behind a paywall. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Free Universities.Reply with quote

1061 wrote:
Abbott and Hockey would roll in their graves.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4213550.ece

Quote:

David Charter Berlin
Published at 12:01AM, September 22 2014

All German universities will be free of charge when term starts next week after fees were abandoned in Lower Saxony, the last of seven states to charge.

“Tuition fees are socially unjust,” said Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator for science in Hamburg, which scrapped charges in 2012. “They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”



Wow, fantastic; bravo Germany!

It's great to see leading countries commit to enlightened ideas like that, especially after a phase of aggressive neocon rollback.

Germany has seen enough of the advantage of skills and technology during the financial crisis to get the point (albeit buoyed by Euro devaluation elsewhere).

Mind you, you'd be forgiven for thinking this war ought to have been won a very long time ago, much like healthcare Rolling Eyes

This was one of the main errors of my hero Keating and points to an inability to divorce himself from his own very unusual personal experience, and as such a certain fragility (you don't submit a nation to bad policy just to justify your childhood and grandad's views). As I always say, just because Stui and Paul Keating have a lot of insight and wherewithal without having done formal education, doesn't deny the overwhelming applicability of the argument.

HECS is better than nothing, but to frame things so that nothing is even a consideration when it comes to funding the foundation of advanced human thought in modern society, and the primary driver of advanced value-added productivity by a country mile, is a monstrous blind spot. Not to mention being pro-free market and punishing people for driving national productivity is so contradictory it's beyond belief.

Simply, education, much like basic utilities, is not a free market good but rather a socio-economic, infrastructural necessity and technological extension of the citizenry.

_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

And so the suckers in society work hard at lesser jobs while those folk are getting educated on their taxes, so they can get a better job, earn more money, and look down their noses at em, yeah sounds fair. Bugger that, user pays, at least some of it!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:53 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
And so the suckers in society work hard at lesser jobs while those folk are getting educated on their taxes, so they can get a better job, earn more money, and look down their noses at em, yeah sounds fair. Bugger that, user pays, at least some of it!


Well, when those buggers were going to go on to their high paid jobs, pay lots of tax and pay for your government funded pension, it wasn't too bad a swap But the 70's were a long time ago, stuff changes. Wink

_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:15 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
And so the suckers in society work hard at lesser jobs while those folk are getting educated on their taxes, so they can get a better job, earn more money, and look down their noses at em, yeah sounds fair. Bugger that, user pays, at least some of it!

The problem here of feeling looked down upon is fair enough in a certain respect because it can rightly reflect a form of discrimination.

We are all paranoid of being boxed in by dumb formulae, such as "she's educated and therefore more suited to the job", or "he's Asian so he won't be strong enough to lead the department", or "Westerners are lazy", or "she's overweight and therefore lacks self control and cannot be trusted".

On the other hand, the real productivity value of education is so big—like monstrous—it cannot be ignored and must be encouraged if you want to build an advanced society. So let's deal with the discriminatory elements and make it free which in turn makes it even less prone to exclusivity. (Not to mention making the taxation system work properly at higher incomes would do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of disproportionately accrued benefit).

What's the bet if it were free a lot of people such as yourself would give it a shot in one or another form? That would be a win-win for everyone; no need to oppose it out of bitterness as we all gain.

_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:02 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

pietillidie wrote:
think positive wrote:
And so the suckers in society work hard at lesser jobs while those folk are getting educated on their taxes, so they can get a better job, earn more money, and look down their noses at em, yeah sounds fair. Bugger that, user pays, at least some of it!

The problem here of feeling looked down upon is fair enough in a certain respect because it can rightly reflect a form of discrimination.

We are all paranoid of being boxed in by dumb formulae, such as "she's educated and therefore more suited to the job", or "he's Asian so he won't be strong enough to lead the department", or "Westerners are lazy", or "she's overweight and therefore lacks self control and cannot be trusted".

On the other hand, the real productivity value of education is so big—like monstrous—it cannot be ignored and must be encouraged if you want to build an advanced society. So let's deal with the discriminatory elements and make it free which in turn makes it even less prone to exclusivity. (Not to mention making the taxation system work properly at higher incomes would do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of disproportionately accrued benefit).

What's the bet if it were free a lot of people such as yourself would give it a shot in one or another form? That would be a win-win for everyone; no need to oppose it out of bitterness as we all gain.


People such as me?

Edited, not worth it,

My two kids are at UNi, with HECS bills. We can afford to pay it for them, but have no intention of handing them life on a platter. That does no one any favours. I've seen plenty of spoon fed kids, and guess what, they are all lazy bastards. Their private education was paid for with no reservations at all, and no regrets, it was worth every cent, but they want more, they can earn it. I don't look down on anyone, and I don't let people look down on me. You think knowing big words makes you a better person? You think going to school for another 4-10 to study history or painting makes someone a better person than me, more deserving? You can stick your "more advanced" society where the sun don't shine. I'll settle for one where people are kind to each other. Kind to animals and kind to the world we live in. Education is worth nothing if you don't have world experience and people skills. Education is nothing if your not happy. And I gotta tell ya, from the condescending, pompous posts I read on here so often from many of the so called educated "class" there's a lot of unhappy people out there using big words. We don't need more chiefs out there with no hands on skills, but plenty of stupid unworkable ideas, we need the folks out there learning on the job the best way to get things done, we need them to get the recognition they deserve. And we need the lazy bastards hiding behind school books forever and a day to get there hands dirty.

Nothing is free. Everything has a price, and somebody pays.

You want to make something free? Make it health care. The rest, you earn.

_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!


Last edited by think positive on Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:46 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

University isn't the valuable asset it once was. Why should people be forced to pay for someone's BA with Women's Studies major that will never contribute anything of value back to society? If there ever is 'free' tertiary education again I think it should be tied to degrees with real value to the society paying for it, in effect an investment on the future. If people want to do vanity or hobby degrees then let them pay, but if they are doing a STEM degree or something in Health or even a 'hard Arts' degree such as History, Journalism or Politics then sure the tax payer could fund it, knowing the return on the investment will come (Higher earners pay more tax, research creates wealth and improves society etc).

I would still prefer the current model of an education loan but maybe bring in more 'scholarship' type payments to ensure we remain the clever country and don't regress back to a primary industry economy.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:47 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, TP, as demonstrated in the past your reactionary black and white arguments on this make no sense at all because we've already established you're not going to pay for even 500 yards of freeway.

Everything is actually social; we just separate certain things out individually for the sake of managing human incentive psychology and productivity.

There is absolutely stacks of evidence linking Fred's education to your wealth, and stacks of evidence linking costly privatised education to decreased productivity across the population. Just because you can't see it doesn't make it less true.

In your defensiveness you're confusing hard work with productivity and value-adding; and an appreciation for productivity and value-adding with criticism. All of these are entirely different concepts.

For some bizarre reason you think I'm suggesting you need an education; actually, I'm suggesting education increases the productivity of the nation. It's not about you; about the only thing all economists agree with is the fact that productivity underwrites everyone's wealth including your own.

_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:53 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole universe?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:57 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

pietillidie wrote:
^Yes, but as demonstrated in the past that black and white argument makes no sense at all because we know you're not going to pay for even 500 yards of freeway. Everything is actually social; we just separate things out for the sake of managing human incentive psychology.

There is absolutely stacks of evidence linking Fred's education to your wealth, and stacks of evidence linking costly education to decreased productivity across the productive population. Just because you can't see it doesn't make it less true.

In your defensiveness you're confusing hard work with productivity and value-adding; and an appreciation for productivity and value-adding with criticism. All of these are entirely different concepts.

For some bizarre reason you think I'm suggesting you need an education; actually, I'm suggesting education increases the productivity of the nation. It's not about you; about the only thing all economists agree with is the fact that productivity underwrites everyone's wealth including your own.


And I'm telling you that hard work and education through the job is what increases productivity. Any one with dirt stained hands has had a boss who was highly educated, but dumb as dog shit.

You want to give free education to doctors and surgeons (except cosmetic) fair enough. Medical studies, finding a cure for cancer, environmental science, but going to school to learn about history, make a mint sueing people (ps I have nothing against lawyers, but maybe not ever needing one has prevented me from being jaded) or doing a companies accounts, working out where Michelangelo had his first root, then no, not free. Things that physically assist society, fair enough, but all that other stuff, no.

And not making it about me? What was that line then? I'm not particularly sensitive, I can take a barrel of shit, but don't call me dumb, and you may not realise it with your condescending way of thinking but that's exactly how it reads. And I say with no malice intended, but I've often thought from your posts, which I'm sure you think are old chap funny, your a $£$%^%%$ snob!

_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!


Last edited by think positive on Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:03 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Wokko wrote:
University isn't the valuable asset it once was. Why should people be forced to pay for someone's BA with Women's Studies major that will never contribute anything of value back to society? If there ever is 'free' tertiary education again I think it should be tied to degrees with real value to the society paying for it, in effect an investment on the future. If people want to do vanity or hobby degrees then let them pay, but if they are doing a STEM degree or something in Health or even a 'hard Arts' degree such as History, Journalism or Politics then sure the tax payer could fund it, knowing the return on the investment will come (Higher earners pay more tax, research creates wealth and improves society etc).

I would still prefer the current model of an education loan but maybe bring in more 'scholarship' type payments to ensure we remain the clever country and don't regress back to a primary industry economy.


I agree with all that except the history journalism or politics bit. Swap it out for something meaningful (you seriously think journalism is meaningful these days!). And yes, education should be encouraged. But earn it.

_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern All times are GMT + 11 Hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group