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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | It's true. The Hawks success was built on trading out a number of older players and bringing in as many draft picks as possible.
We've done a bit of it already. Maybe enough, with Thomas and Shaw being let go. But all of our changes have been partially forced on us. The big bold move that could really set us up for the future is to trade Cloke. The Hawks did it with trading out Croad and bringing in Hodge and Mitchell (though Mitchell was a gold strike at pick 36). If we could get Pertracca for Cloke and more, it may be worth it.
I won't be blaming the club for not making such a big move, but with our window being pushed back to 3+ years in the future, I'm starting to think it's the right one. The only thing that would turn me around on this is if we bring in a ready made star like Dangerfield for Beams, as that brings our window in again. |
I am less firm about retaining Cloke than I was a couple of days ago. These things are clearly matters of taste. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | It's true. The Hawks success was built on trading out a number of older players and bringing in as many draft picks as possible.
We've done a bit of it already. Maybe enough, with Thomas and Shaw being let go. But all of our changes have been partially forced on us. The big bold move that could really set us up for the future is to trade Cloke. The Hawks did it with trading out Croad and bringing in Hodge and Mitchell (though Mitchell was a gold strike at pick 36). If we could get Pertracca for Cloke and more, it may be worth it.
I won't be blaming the club for not making such a big move, but with our window being pushed back to 3+ years in the future, I'm starting to think it's the right one. The only thing that would turn me around on this is if we bring in a ready made star like Dangerfield for Beams, as that brings our window in again. |
There's a big difference between Cloke and Croad. For all his weaknesses, Cloke is a recognised star of the AFL and probably it's best contested mark, whereas Croad was a high draft pick but only a moderate to poor performer. For our team to develop and grow we need a strong spine to build it around and I reckon Cloke will hold down a key forward role for another 4-5 years, which overlaps our 'Premiership window'. |
I agree. Cloke critical to team development. May mean we end up taking a mid at 4 or 7. Add that to Kennedy, Freeman, Broomhead, Scharenberg and starting to build some depth.
Last edited by jackcass on Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Flashman wrote: | Yep Clark has form on this front and shouldn't be considered imo.
Geelong are screaming out for another forward and will offer far more money than we will I reckon and they'll do likewise to get Frawley.
Frankly I think it is a bad idea as Frawley is a camel (one AA year does not a champion make, ask Jonathon Hay) and Clark has issues aside from his depression.
With Beamer wanting out we are now in a position to be the big player of trade week and we need to be aiming for top end talent (both younger and in the prime of their careers) not taking punts on damaged goods who may or may not come up to scratch. |
a camel??
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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We need Cloke to help protect and guide young Moore over the next 4 to 5 seasons.
Cloke needs to get back on his bike next year and start working over his opponents again like he used to.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| think positive wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | Yep Clark has form on this front and shouldn't be considered imo.
Geelong are screaming out for another forward and will offer far more money than we will I reckon and they'll do likewise to get Frawley.
Frankly I think it is a bad idea as Frawley is a camel (one AA year does not a champion make, ask Jonathon Hay) and Clark has issues aside from his depression.
With Beamer wanting out we are now in a position to be the big player of trade week and we need to be aiming for top end talent (both younger and in the prime of their careers) not taking punts on damaged goods who may or may not come up to scratch. |
a camel?? |
He has the hump with Melbourne
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We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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| think positive wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | Yep Clark has form on this front and shouldn't be considered imo.
Geelong are screaming out for another forward and will offer far more money than we will I reckon and they'll do likewise to get Frawley.
Frankly I think it is a bad idea as Frawley is a camel (one AA year does not a champion make, ask Jonathon Hay) and Clark has issues aside from his depression.
With Beamer wanting out we are now in a position to be the big player of trade week and we need to be aiming for top end talent (both younger and in the prime of their careers) not taking punts on damaged goods who may or may not come up to scratch. |
a camel?? |
Plodding, ungainly, ineffective and unattractive when compared to a true thoroughbred.
A spud for wont of a better word. |
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derkd
Joined: 29 May 2013
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | The Prototype wrote: | I've been on the short term pain, long term gain wagon for awhile now...I think we have ourselves a good developing list just need to wait it out. Keep being patient.
But that has just been my theory for a bit this season, I guess we will have to wait and see where the gain comes from in the long run. |
It may be that our present coach will, like Peter Schwab, be a sacrificial offering. I think our Club is pointed in the right direction at the moment, accepting finally that sustained success is built upon a concentration of elite talent recruited young enough. Whether the present coach can do anything with the talent is a whole different question.
But, for me, yesterday was about acknowledging that a game plan will only get a team so far. Clarkson didn't win yesterday's match with a game plan. Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell won it by being the best finals players on the park by some considerable margin. On paper, the Swans win that game every time. Unhappily for them, the Grand Final is not played on paper. |
Some credit also has to go to the administration at Hawthorn ...Kennett did a great job...didn't let the club accept second best and got them where they are today.
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"To know nothing of events before your birth, is to forever remain a child" - Cicero (Roman Lawyer/Senator) 46 BCE. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Chat amongst yourselves. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Flashman wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | Yep Clark has form on this front and shouldn't be considered imo.
Geelong are screaming out for another forward and will offer far more money than we will I reckon and they'll do likewise to get Frawley.
Frankly I think it is a bad idea as Frawley is a camel (one AA year does not a champion make, ask Jonathon Hay) and Clark has issues aside from his depression.
With Beamer wanting out we are now in a position to be the big player of trade week and we need to be aiming for top end talent (both younger and in the prime of their careers) not taking punts on damaged goods who may or may not come up to scratch. |
a camel?? |
Plodding, ungainly, ineffective and unattractive when compared to a true thoroughbred.
A spud for wont of a better word. |
Ah, ta
I like camels!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Post subject: Re: Hawthorn - proof that short-term pain can be worth it | |
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | I thought it might be useful to investigate whether and to what extent the Hawks used the draft to build their present formidable team.
After the 1991 flag, the Hawks remained there or thereabouts, finishing 5th, 4th and 6th in the next three years, before tailing off from 1995 to 1998, finishing 15th, 8th, 15th and 13th. They then finished 9th, 6th and 4th. Having finished 4th in 2001, they did what was necessary to get Hodge. Croad and McPharlin were traded to Freo for the top pick and pick 36, which the Hawks hilariously used to recruit Sam Mitchell (who'd been running around at Box Hill, having failed to get drafted in 2000)!
Having secured Hodge, they promptly dropped to 10th and 9th in the next 2 seasons. History suggests they drafted poorly in 2002, taking Luke Brennan, ahead of Hamish McIntosh, Winderlich and Jay Schulz.
In 2003, their drafting was again fairly average (Harry Miller, anyone)?
In 2004, they finished 15th. That - and some very special help from Richmond and Footscray enabled them to take Roughead at 2 and Franklin at 5. Of course, Collingwood trading pick 7 to them enabled them to take Lewis.
The next year they finished 15th. Happily, they took Ellis and Dowler with picks 3 and 6. However, they also traded in picks 14 and 18 for Jonathan Hay and Nathan Lonie. They used those picks on Birchall and Max Bailey. After that, they started the steady upward climb to 2008.
A few things are notable. One is that the Hawks actively traded out good solid players to improve their draft position. Another is that they endured a lengthy spell of modest outcomes during their 17 year spell out of Grand Final contention. Yet another is that the real stars of the team who took the Swans apart yesterday were recruited systematically a decade ago. True, they've had some other good pick-ups and trading top-ups but the success of the recent Hawthorn teams has been built on the platform of star talent they recruited between 2001 and 2005.
I'm not especially interested in trying to draw any morals from this story, save that it tends to suggest that the platform for yesterday's success was built a decade or so ago on a strategy of trading up for draft picks and bringing in elite talent. |
Bump, I like this thinking, care to chuck some names up for comparisons?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I know one is between zero and two but I had no idea it was that the Hawks traded out good solid players to improve their draft position. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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The problem we have in comparison to Hawthorn is we look like losing our Mitchell (later pick gem), in Beams, and have already lost Thomas.
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Well done boys! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | The problem we have in comparison to Hawthorn is we look like losing our Mitchell (later pick gem), in Beams, and have already lost Thomas. |
Injuries destroyed Thomas, and in any case Freeman may prove a great replacement. Let's see who we get for Beams before we start crying spilt milk. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | | The problem we have in comparison to Hawthorn is we look like losing our Mitchell (later pick gem), in Beams, and have already lost Thomas. |
Injuries destroyed Thomas, and in any case Freeman may prove a great replacement. Let's see who we get for Beams before we start crying spilt milk. |
Because injury's have been kind to Freeman so far.....
Lollipops, lollipops, lollipops...  |
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