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Hawthorn - proof that short-term pain can be worth it

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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:23 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Defender wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Defender wrote:
Which is why should trade Cloke now! It's very unlikely he'll be around for our next tilt.

I expressed a strong aversion to this when An Inkling suggested it a couple of days ago. I'm not sure now what I think. If an outstanding deal could be done, I might reconsider. Could we get pick 1 by some means? I don't want to lose one of the few players that gives us something to cheer about for another modest pick we can use on a smallish medium-paced mid.


I think Melbourne would be our best bet, they desperately need to improve and they'll (more than likely) have 2 top 5 picks after the Frawley compensation.

(BTW Melbourne are the ones I'm worried about bidding on Moore)

They certainly gave well over the odds for Dawes. Are they stupid enough to do it again?


Dawes may not be a great player, but he worked fine in our set up as a 2nd option combo with Cloke - Bucks killed him by making him do things he wasn't able to do, and then discarded him for a used up hack (Lynch) - it's not his fault imho. He's the main target at Melb and he was a lot better off being a 2nd target with Cloke.

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Brenny 



Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:25 pm
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Well 3AW are reporting that Clark has backflipped on Collingwood and will now join Geelong.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:25 pm
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I'm trying to have a discussion about list management and you just want to make it yet another thread about Buckley. Why can't you leave off? I have no idea whether Buckley can or can't coach but not every thread should be about it. It's frankly quite tedious.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:27 pm
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Brenny wrote:
Well 3AW are reporting that Clark has backflipped on Collingwood and will now join Geelong.

Clark has a history of doing that sort of thing. Ask, Fremantle. I'm not sure why you'd post that in this thread, though.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:36 pm
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Hang on a second. Clark hasn't backflipped on Collingwood. Who said he was coming to us in the first place?

Why come to the Pies when you have a team like Geelong who will play finals, who can keep out of the media spotlight, is commuting distance to Melbourne, you can have a good lifestyle down the coast & you're not located next to the Melbourne FC?

I hope he does come our way but compared to Geelong we are a long way off it IMO.

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roar 



Joined: 01 Sep 2004


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:38 pm
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Defender wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Defender wrote:
Which is why should trade Cloke now! It's very unlikely he'll be around for our next tilt.

I expressed a strong aversion to this when An Inkling suggested it a couple of days ago. I'm not sure now what I think. If an outstanding deal could be done, I might reconsider. Could we get pick 1 by some means? I don't want to lose one of the few players that gives us something to cheer about for another modest pick we can use on a smallish medium-paced mid.


I think Melbourne would be our best bet, they desperately need to improve and they'll (more than likely) have 2 top 5 picks after the Frawley compensation.

(BTW Melbourne are the ones I'm worried about bidding on Moore)

I think Melbourne understands that doing that to us (nominating Moore) could affect the benefits we give them e.g. queen's birthday deal.

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innocent_criminal 



Joined: 06 Oct 2004


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:47 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
Hang on a second. Clark hasn't backflipped on Collingwood. Who said he was coming to us in the first place?

Why come to the Pies when you have a team like Geelong who will play finals, who can keep out of the media spotlight, is commuting distance to Melbourne, you can have a good lifestyle down the coast & you're not located next to the Melbourne FC?

I hope he does come our way but compared to Geelong we are a long way off it IMO.


He would have to weigh that up against the weight of expectation from a possible top 4 contender vs our probably lesser goals of perhaps top 8 where he could ease back into the game both physically & mentally.

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Cam Capricorn

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Joined: 10 May 2002
Location: Springvale

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:14 pm
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Brenny wrote:
Well 3AW are reporting that Clark has backflipped on Collingwood and will now join Geelong.


Exactly why we should not entertain picking up this nutcase in the first place. He is as unstable as warrick capper's g string on a saturday night.

AVOID Pies AVOID.

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Flashman 



Joined: 11 Aug 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:27 pm
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Yep Clark has form on this front and shouldn't be considered imo.

Geelong are screaming out for another forward and will offer far more money than we will I reckon and they'll do likewise to get Frawley.

Frankly I think it is a bad idea as Frawley is a camel (one AA year does not a champion make, ask Jonathon Hay) and Clark has issues aside from his depression.

With Beamer wanting out we are now in a position to be the big player of trade week and we need to be aiming for top end talent (both younger and in the prime of their careers) not taking punts on damaged goods who may or may not come up to scratch.
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OEP Pisces



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:29 pm
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Yeah I agree P4S Hawthorn have been patient in building the team they wanted but at the same time very aggressive in getting those players or picks the club wanted, and they weren't afraid to take risks along the way to do it.
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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:46 pm
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It's true. The Hawks success was built on trading out a number of older players and bringing in as many draft picks as possible.

We've done a bit of it already. Maybe enough, with Thomas and Shaw being let go. But all of our changes have been partially forced on us. The big bold move that could really set us up for the future is to trade Cloke. The Hawks did it with trading out Croad and bringing in Hodge and Mitchell (though Mitchell was a gold strike at pick 36). If we could get Pertracca for Cloke and more, it may be worth it.

I won't be blaming the club for not making such a big move, but with our window being pushed back to 3+ years in the future, I'm starting to think it's the right one. The only thing that would turn me around on this is if we bring in a ready made star like Dangerfield for Beams, as that brings our window in again.

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:19 pm
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AN_Inkling wrote:
It's true. The Hawks success was built on trading out a number of older players and bringing in as many draft picks as possible.

We've done a bit of it already. Maybe enough, with Thomas and Shaw being let go. But all of our changes have been partially forced on us. The big bold move that could really set us up for the future is to trade Cloke. The Hawks did it with trading out Croad and bringing in Hodge and Mitchell (though Mitchell was a gold strike at pick 36). If we could get Pertracca for Cloke and more, it may be worth it.

I won't be blaming the club for not making such a big move, but with our window being pushed back to 3+ years in the future, I'm starting to think it's the right one. The only thing that would turn me around on this is if we bring in a ready made star like Dangerfield for Beams, as that brings our window in again.


There's a big difference between Cloke and Croad. For all his weaknesses, Cloke is a recognised star of the AFL and probably it's best contested mark, whereas Croad was a high draft pick but only a moderate to poor performer. For our team to develop and grow we need a strong spine to build it around and I reckon Cloke will hold down a key forward role for another 4-5 years, which overlaps our 'Premiership window'.
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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:36 pm
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^^Maybe just overlaps if all goes well.

I do agree that a strong spine is important, which is why we need to be sure we have a good Cloke replacement - which we'll need anyway, because in 3-5 years even if Cloke is still around he will be below his peak. But more important is a strong and deep midfield. If we feel that what we have is good enough, fine. My view is that it's not and that we might need to think about making a bold move to improve.

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Big T 



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:29 pm
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The only team who would trade for Cloke would be one in contention and desperate - the problem being, that are not holding the top 2 picks. There is no way bottom 2 clubs would be interested in losing a top 2 pick for Cloke. Who would?

North Melbourne, Richmond, Brisbane (they believe they will be finals next year and need a strong forward plus beams to achieve that), West Coast, Fremantle, Port, Adelaide. I don't know what any of these teams could possibly offer.

Cloke ain't goin nowhere.

We should just focus on getting pick 4 for Beams as a minimum.

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collie dog 

RIP Shelby 11-10-13


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:32 pm
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Brenny wrote:
Well 3AW are reporting that Clark has backflipped on Collingwood and will now join Geelong.


Good. Too much of a risk. There are better options. Why didn't we try to get Ryder?

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