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Hawthorn - proof that short-term pain can be worth it

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:50 pm
Post subject: Hawthorn - proof that short-term pain can be worth itReply with quote

I thought it might be useful to investigate whether and to what extent the Hawks used the draft to build their present formidable team.

After the 1991 flag, the Hawks remained there or thereabouts, finishing 5th, 4th and 6th in the next three years, before tailing off from 1995 to 1998, finishing 15th, 8th, 15th and 13th. They then finished 9th, 6th and 4th. Having finished 4th in 2001, they did what was necessary to get Hodge. Croad and McPharlin were traded to Freo for the top pick and pick 36, which the Hawks hilariously used to recruit Sam Mitchell (who'd been running around at Box Hill, having failed to get drafted in 2000)!

Having secured Hodge, they promptly dropped to 10th and 9th in the next 2 seasons. History suggests they drafted poorly in 2002, taking Luke Brennan, ahead of Hamish McIntosh, Winderlich and Jay Schulz.

In 2003, their drafting was again fairly average (Harry Miller, anyone)?

In 2004, they finished 15th. That - and some very special help from Richmond and Footscray enabled them to take Roughead at 2 and Franklin at 5. Of course, Collingwood trading pick 7 to them enabled them to take Lewis.

The next year they finished 15th. Happily, they took Ellis and Dowler with picks 3 and 6. However, they also traded in picks 14 and 18 for Jonathan Hay and Nathan Lonie. They used those picks on Birchall and Max Bailey. After that, they started the steady upward climb to 2008.

A few things are notable. One is that the Hawks actively traded out good solid players to improve their draft position. Another is that they endured a lengthy spell of modest outcomes during their 17 year spell out of Grand Final contention. Yet another is that the real stars of the team who took the Swans apart yesterday were recruited systematically a decade ago. True, they've had some other good pick-ups and trading top-ups but the success of the recent Hawthorn teams has been built on the platform of star talent they recruited between 2001 and 2005.

I'm not especially interested in trying to draw any morals from this story, save that it tends to suggest that the platform for yesterday's success was built a decade or so ago on a strategy of trading up for draft picks and bringing in elite talent.
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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:54 pm
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I know one is the smallest integer but I had no idea it was that the Hawks traded out good solid players to improve their draft position.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:57 pm
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I suppose one could add that Peter Schwab probably deserves more credit than he gets for embarking on this plan - the style was set during his tenure as coach.
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The Prototype Virgo

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Joined: 23 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:58 pm
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I've been on the short term pain, long term gain wagon for awhile now...I think we have ourselves a good developing list just need to wait it out. Keep being patient.

But that has just been my theory for a bit this season, I guess we will have to wait and see where the gain comes from in the long run.

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BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:26 pm
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Of the four weeks of the finals IMO two games were simalar in as much as the winner
got out the block at the first bounce , hit the opposition hard at the start and never once
let up.
One was the blitzkreig Port applied to Tigers and in GF blitzkreig two
Both Port and Hawks in these games ran harder for longer with the attitude
We have the ball so if you are committed enough or strong enough get it off us
Port were not in contention two yrs back but now play the run hard aggresively all day

If this the path we should take and will our young boys in years to come have that tough aggresion OR will create another style of the game (simalar to our fwd press)

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Bob Sugar 



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:49 pm
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Which is why should trade Cloke now! It's very unlikely he'll be around for our next tilt.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:49 pm
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The Prototype wrote:
I've been on the short term pain, long term gain wagon for awhile now...I think we have ourselves a good developing list just need to wait it out. Keep being patient.

But that has just been my theory for a bit this season, I guess we will have to wait and see where the gain comes from in the long run.

It may be that our present coach will, like Peter Schwab, be a sacrificial offering. I think our Club is pointed in the right direction at the moment, accepting finally that sustained success is built upon a concentration of elite talent recruited young enough. Whether the present coach can do anything with the talent is a whole different question.

But, for me, yesterday was about acknowledging that a game plan will only get a team so far. Clarkson didn't win yesterday's match with a game plan. Hodge, Lewis and Mitchell won it by being the best finals players on the park by some considerable margin. On paper, the Swans win that game every time. Unhappily for them, the Grand Final is not played on paper.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:54 pm
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Defender wrote:
Which is why should trade Cloke now! It's very unlikely he'll be around for our next tilt.

I expressed a strong aversion to this when An Inkling suggested it a couple of days ago. I'm not sure now what I think. If an outstanding deal could be done, I might reconsider. Could we get pick 1 by some means? I don't want to lose one of the few players that gives us something to cheer about for another modest pick we can use on a smallish medium-paced mid.
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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:55 pm
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We would not be in the state we are now with better list management and man management.

The likes of Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Beams and Sidebottom amongst others were drafted a long while ago now and should have formed the backbone to premiership assaults over the last year, this year and next but for various reasons discussed at length already it's all gone to shite.

To be perfectly frank as much as I was overjoyed with the succession plan put in place in 2009 after the seasons we had in 2010 and 11 cooler heads should have prevailed with Buckley asked to put his ambitions on hold for a couple of more years.

We played the most dominant football I've seen from a Collingwood side in my lifetime during those two years and while we didn't deliver the two flags we should it's folly to suggest any senior coach in history should or would be replaced on the back of those two seasons.

It's all gone downhill since then and while I don't blame Buckley personally for all of it from that day forward a division in the playing group has formed IMO and it's lead to a situation now where the club isn't the happy place it once was, players aren't prepared to stick fat with teammates for less money or when personal issues arise while others have been moved on because they haven't embraced the new coach or his methods.

Until we become a happy and united playing group again we won't be a finals force anytime soon and only time will tell whether Buckley is the man to lead us back to that place or is one of the problems standing in the way of it.

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Bob Sugar 



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:03 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Defender wrote:
Which is why should trade Cloke now! It's very unlikely he'll be around for our next tilt.

I expressed a strong aversion to this when An Inkling suggested it a couple of days ago. I'm not sure now what I think. If an outstanding deal could be done, I might reconsider. Could we get pick 1 by some means? I don't want to lose one of the few players that gives us something to cheer about for another modest pick we can use on a smallish medium-paced mid.


I think Melbourne would be our best bet, they desperately need to improve and they'll (more than likely) have 2 top 5 picks after the Frawley compensation.

(BTW Melbourne are the ones I'm worried about bidding on Moore)

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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:03 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
We would not be in the state we are now with better list management and man management.

The likes of Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Beams and Sidebottom amongst others were drafted a long while ago now and should have formed the backbone to premiership assaults over the last year, this year and next but for various reasons discussed at length already it's all gone to shite.

To be perfectly frank as much as I was overjoyed with the succession plan put in place in 2009 after the seasons we had in 2010 and 11 cooler heads should have prevailed with Buckley asked to put his ambitions on hold for a couple of more years.

We played the most dominant football I've seen from a Collingwood side in my lifetime during those two years and while we didn't deliver the two flags we should it's folly to suggest any senior coach in history should or would be replaced on the back of those two seasons.

It's all gone downhill since then and while I don't blame Buckley personally for all of it from that day forward a division in the playing group has formed IMO and it's lead to a situation now where the club isn't the happy place it once was, players aren't prepared to stick fat with teammates for less money or when personal issues arise while others have been moved on because they haven't embraced the new coach or his methods.

Until we become a happy and united playing group again we won't be a finals force anytime soon and only time will tell whether Buckley is the man to lead us back to that place or is one of the problems standing in the way of it.


I see it almost exactly like you swoop, I'm just less hopeful on the Bucks front.. that is all.

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Bob Sugar 



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:08 pm
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote:
swoop42 wrote:
We would not be in the state we are now with better list management and man management.

The likes of Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Beams and Sidebottom amongst others were drafted a long while ago now and should have formed the backbone to premiership assaults over the last year, this year and next but for various reasons discussed at length already it's all gone to shite.

To be perfectly frank as much as I was overjoyed with the succession plan put in place in 2009 after the seasons we had in 2010 and 11 cooler heads should have prevailed with Buckley asked to put his ambitions on hold for a couple of more years.

We played the most dominant football I've seen from a Collingwood side in my lifetime during those two years and while we didn't deliver the two flags we should it's folly to suggest any senior coach in history should or would be replaced on the back of those two seasons.

It's all gone downhill since then and while I don't blame Buckley personally for all of it from that day forward a division in the playing group has formed IMO and it's lead to a situation now where the club isn't the happy place it once was, players aren't prepared to stick fat with teammates for less money or when personal issues arise while others have been moved on because they haven't embraced the new coach or his methods.

Until we become a happy and united playing group again we won't be a finals force anytime soon and only time will tell whether Buckley is the man to lead us back to that place or is one of the problems standing in the way of it.


I see it almost exactly like you swoop, I'm just less hopeful on the Bucks front.. that is all.


I don't think it matters who's coaching us for the next 2 years now, our list is a long way off contending, I just hope no more players walk.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:14 pm
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The list management has been exactly what was necessary - work out who won't be part of the next flag and get what you can for them. I've been very impressed with the trading negotiations over the last couple of years. Instead of getting bent over, we seemed to be doing the bending. The trades to the Eagles, The Dees and GWS were all better than I expected.

There's no good crying over spilt milk. If our team was good enough, it wouldn't have lost in 2011 to a side that has been steadily declining since 2009.
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:16 pm
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Defender wrote:
The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote:
swoop42 wrote:
We would not be in the state we are now with better list management and man management.

The likes of Swan, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Beams and Sidebottom amongst others were drafted a long while ago now and should have formed the backbone to premiership assaults over the last year, this year and next but for various reasons discussed at length already it's all gone to shite.

To be perfectly frank as much as I was overjoyed with the succession plan put in place in 2009 after the seasons we had in 2010 and 11 cooler heads should have prevailed with Buckley asked to put his ambitions on hold for a couple of more years.

We played the most dominant football I've seen from a Collingwood side in my lifetime during those two years and while we didn't deliver the two flags we should it's folly to suggest any senior coach in history should or would be replaced on the back of those two seasons.

It's all gone downhill since then and while I don't blame Buckley personally for all of it from that day forward a division in the playing group has formed IMO and it's lead to a situation now where the club isn't the happy place it once was, players aren't prepared to stick fat with teammates for less money or when personal issues arise while others have been moved on because they haven't embraced the new coach or his methods.

Until we become a happy and united playing group again we won't be a finals force anytime soon and only time will tell whether Buckley is the man to lead us back to that place or is one of the problems standing in the way of it.


I see it almost exactly like you swoop, I'm just less hopeful on the Bucks front.. that is all.


I don't think it matters who's coaching us for the next 2 years now, our list is a long way off contending, I just hope no more players walk.


I agree, but I'm hoping it isn't used as an excuses to keep Bucks on if he truly can't coach (which at this point, he's been unable to disprove).

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:19 pm
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Defender wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Defender wrote:
Which is why should trade Cloke now! It's very unlikely he'll be around for our next tilt.

I expressed a strong aversion to this when An Inkling suggested it a couple of days ago. I'm not sure now what I think. If an outstanding deal could be done, I might reconsider. Could we get pick 1 by some means? I don't want to lose one of the few players that gives us something to cheer about for another modest pick we can use on a smallish medium-paced mid.


I think Melbourne would be our best bet, they desperately need to improve and they'll (more than likely) have 2 top 5 picks after the Frawley compensation.

(BTW Melbourne are the ones I'm worried about bidding on Moore)

They certainly gave well over the odds for Dawes. Are they stupid enough to do it again?
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