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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's just such a bizarre argument. Pa Marmo thinks that if this crazy conspiracy theory were true it'd be some kind of smoking gun that demolishes Obama's credibility. But it's not. In a country that holds the separation of church and state dearly, there's absolutely no reason why a Muslim shouldn't be President. Obama could have a Damascus Road conversion tomorrow and start worshipping Allah and it would be business as usual.
But of course, none of those quotes suggest that Obama is a Muslim. They're all more or less things I'd say if I were President of the USA addressing a Muslim or mixed faith audience, and I'm a committed atheist. What Obama is, of course, is a nominal Christian who's most likely an agnostic in private. But I don't really care what religion he follows.
As the saying goes, "By their fruits you shall know them". Obama's a somewhat socially progressive intellectual with a general preference for diplomacy over conflict (but still someone who shows a lack of regard for the well-being of foreigners). That's all that matters. Allah Akbar! Oops, I mean, QED. 
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Last edited by David on Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | It's just such a bizarre argument. Pa Marmo thinks that if this crazy conspiracy theory were true it'd be some kind of smoking gun that demolishes Obama's credibility. But it's not. In a country that holds the separation of church and state dearly, there's absolutely no reason why a Muslim shouldn't be President. Obama could have a Damascus Road conversion tomorrow and start worshipping Allah and it would be business as usual.
None of those quotes suggest that Obama is a Muslim. They're all more or less things I'd say if I were President of the USA addressing a Muslim or mixed faith audience, and I'm a committed atheist. What Obama is, of course, is a nominal Christian who's most likely an agnostic in private. But I don't really care what religion he follows.
As the saying goes, "By their fruit you shall know them". Obama's a somewhat socially progressive intellectual with a general preference for diplomacy over conflict (but still someone who shows a lack of regard for the well-being of foreigners). That's all that matters. Allah Akbar! Oops, I mean, QED. |
Interesting, really. If Obama did have a conversion to Islam i wonder if that would invalidate his democratic mandate, given that Islam has become so politicised that it'd seem like a switch in political allegiance, and a fundamental change in the implicit compact that he represented in his electoral campaigns ?
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | It's just such a bizarre argument. Pa Marmo thinks that if this crazy conspiracy theory were true it'd be some kind of smoking gun that demolishes Obama's credibility. But it's not. In a country that holds the separation of church and state dearly, there's absolutely no reason why a Muslim shouldn't be President. Obama could have a Damascus Road conversion tomorrow and start worshipping Allah and it would be business as usual.
None of those quotes suggest that Obama is a Muslim. They're all more or less things I'd say if I were President of the USA addressing a Muslim or mixed faith audience, and I'm a committed atheist. What Obama is, of course, is a nominal Christian who's most likely an agnostic in private. But I don't really care what religion he follows.
As the saying goes, "By their fruit you shall know them". Obama's a somewhat socially progressive intellectual with a general preference for diplomacy over conflict (but still shows a lack of regard for the well-being of foreigners). That's all that matters. Allah Akbar! Oops, I mean, QED. |
I knew it. Muslim lover. I can't say the n word lover !! God willing we should all meet in Mecca - somewhere near Broadmeadows I believe. Insallah. Do we have to have a moderator who is Muslim?
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Lol, WPT.  Just waiting for the selectively edited YouTube videos.
Now, where did I put that birth certificate? 
| Mugwump wrote: | | Interesting, really. If Obama did have a conversion to Islam i wonder if that would invalidate his democratic mandate, given that Islam has become so politicised that it'd seem like a switch in political allegiance, and a fundamental change in the implicit compact that he represented in his electoral campaigns ? |
It'd be like coming out as gay, as far as I can tell (wonder why that hasn't been a more popular conspiracy theory? ). It'd probably be controversial in a country where the cult of personality in politics is so huge, but I think most Americans have some understanding of the separation of the private and professional.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| No, it wouldn't invalidate his mandate. But it would almost certainly lead to impeachment in the present climate. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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On what grounds, P4S? They couldn't say that he was "aiding the enemy", because they've been so clear about this not being a war on Islam.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Well moderated, David
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Pa Marmo wrote: | So again I'll ask, what did he mean, when he said, "my Muslim faith"?
Obama Islam quotes:
We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world including in my own country.
As a student of history, I also know civilizations debt to Islam.
Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.
Islam has always been part of America
we will encourage more Americans to study in Muslim communities
These rituals remind us of the principles that we hold in common, and Islams role in advancing justice, progress, tolerance, and the dignity of all human beings.
America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.
I made clear that America is not and never will be at war with Islam.
Islam is not part of the problem in combating violent extremism it is an important part of promoting peace.
So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed
In ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of innovation and education.
throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.
Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity and racial equality
See if you can find him quoting christianity in a positive light, it just doesn't happen. You know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it just might be a duck. |
......
Like I said even TBF would run a mile from your crazy ideas. Your'e a grown man. You're not a gullible teenager who can't distinguish what you read on the net  |
I've just pushed the blue button on that attack. Why the hell is such a nasty personal attack warranted here? Who the hell do you think you are? Where has he attacked you? He just answered the question. You may not agree, but doesn't not warrant such a response. |
You're right. I hereby publicly apologise for my response to Pa Marmo.
That Pa Marmo holds crazy bigoted views that have no credibility whatsoever is beside the point - that is his prerogative.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ WPT might have been a little strong with his comments, but a general exhortation to PM to exercise his critical faculty more as a democratic citizen is probably in order. All concrete evidence (ie of the kind that would get you a pass in history at year 10) regarding Obama's religious affiliations have him working (and worshipping) in the Trinity United Church of Christ with Pastor Jeremiah Wright on the south side of Chicago from 1987 until he left Chicago.
His interviews on the subject of religion show him as a man with a properly inclusive concern for the good that religious faith - of different denominations - can bring, as well as a deep disdain for zealotry and bigotry. In some parts of the US, that brings his very Christianity into question, apparently. To those of us in the rational world, it makes him seem pretty much in the mould of mainstream Christianity. The internet has much to answer for. |
Pa Marmos first post on this way back when was when I asked the question, and put forth the answer re Obama attending catholic schools etc. and I included several links re Obamas claims to Christianity. I don't follow politics (obviously,) but I like Obama and his wife.
My strong objection to this post was to the nasty insults and belittling tone which I don't think are called for.
Everyone has an opinion. And there are indeed three sides to every story. I'm just sick and tired of the howling down method used on this forum. WPT is calling Pa out as a child but does so with a high school rant. It's not necessary.
And good moderating? Starting a thread that sounds as if it should have a poll asking if Pa Marmo should be sent to a mental home, decapitated or just plain shot. Yeah that's just bloody lovely.
How does it go again "taking the high road, looking down on everyone else"
Should change his name to Stevic
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ WPT might have been a little strong with his comments, but a general exhortation to PM to exercise his critical faculty more as a democratic citizen is probably in order. All concrete evidence (ie of the kind that would get you a pass in history at year 10) regarding Obama's religious affiliations have him working (and worshipping) in the Trinity United Church of Christ with Pastor Jeremiah Wright on the south side of Chicago from 1987 until he left Chicago.
His interviews on the subject of religion show him as a man with a properly inclusive concern for the good that religious faith - of different denominations - can bring, as well as a deep disdain for zealotry and bigotry. In some parts of the US, that brings his very Christianity into question, apparently. To those of us in the rational world, it makes him seem pretty much in the mould of mainstream Christianity. The internet has much to answer for. |
Pa Marmos first post on this way back when was when I asked the question, and put forth the answer re Obama attending catholic schools etc. and I included several links re Obamas claims to Christianity. I don't follow politics (obviously,) but I like Obama and his wife.
My strong objection to this post was to the nasty insults and belittling tone which I don't think are called for.
Everyone has an opinion. And there are indeed three sides to every story. I'm just sick and tired of the howling down method used on this forum. WPT is calling Pa out as a child but does so with a high school rant. It's not necessary.
And good moderating? Starting a thread that sounds as if it should have a poll asking if Pa Marmo should be sent to a mental home, decapitated or just plain shot. Yeah that's just bloody lovely.
How does it go again "taking the high road, looking down on everyone else"
Should change his name to Stevic |
Actually I meant moving this thread out of a global warming one and under a new, relevant title. It was so far off topic that i didn't want to post in it any more ! Sorry should have been more specific.
I always think of David as more the Razor Ray type....
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: |
Everyone has an opinion. And there are indeed three sides to every story. I'm just sick and tired of the howling down method used on this forum. |
The method you describe can be clearly linked to those of a left political persuasion. It's quite fascinating to observe because they will argue black and blue that they don't, but they do and can't see it.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | I always think of David as more the Razor Ray type.... |
Ouch!
Jo, no offence to PM meant, but it is a ridiculous argument and I think it's ok to point that out. I'm all for playing the ball and not the manin this case, the ball deserves to be booted out of the stadium.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | think positive wrote: |
Everyone has an opinion. And there are indeed three sides to every story. I'm just sick and tired of the howling down method used on this forum. |
The method you describe can be clearly linked to those of a left political persuasion. It's quite fascinating to observe because they will argue black and blue that they don't, but they do and can't see it. |
I think that both sides do this, though i think the mainstream Left are slightly more prone to this than the mainstream right. If that is true (and it may be my filter, but i genuinely do not think so), then I occasionally wonder why this is so. I suppose it is because the left starts from an ethical premise and seeks a universalist good, where the right starts from practical premise and seeks a limited good. The former makes a moral appeal for universal assent, and tends to regard dissent as ethically suspect - where the right tend to regard dissent as tribally suspect. The left demands agreement, the right demands membership. The left howls down dissent and tries to force its inclusion ; the right marks it out and tries to exclude it.
None of this is a partisan point, or at least i hope not. I'm naturally more disposed to the rightist response, but neither, taken to extreme, is a particularly attractive quality.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I think (oh God, here I go, I'm going to have to split the thread again ) that people go too easy on the right in some of these discussions because conservatives own so much of the status quo. Take the Herald Sun for example: now, that's a right-wing paper with an aggressively political agenda, but a lot of people don't see that because they see those views as the norm.
When, say, I suggest a slightly more radical left-wing political idea on here and get howled down by the typical Herald Sun-reading set, people don't see that as an aggressive right-wing response; just the mainstream asserting the rightful order of things. If anyone wants proof of sustained right-wing aggression, look at the vitriol levelled at the last Labor government and its leaders from the right side of politics (keeping in mind that this was a government that any political scientist would denote as centrist if not centre-right).
Unlike some on the left, I don't see that either side has a monopoly on virtue or civility. Both sides can be as nasty, ignorant and censorious as the other. That's why, as a general rule, I try to remain sceptical of all opinions and open to all argumentsbut even that has its limitations, as this thread shows. Perhaps sometimes we (whether left or right) just need to be able to say "I respect you as a person, but that's dumb". I think this is one such case.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ WPT might have been a little strong with his comments, but a general exhortation to PM to exercise his critical faculty more as a democratic citizen is probably in order. All concrete evidence (ie of the kind that would get you a pass in history at year 10) regarding Obama's religious affiliations have him working (and worshipping) in the Trinity United Church of Christ with Pastor Jeremiah Wright on the south side of Chicago from 1987 until he left Chicago.
His interviews on the subject of religion show him as a man with a properly inclusive concern for the good that religious faith - of different denominations - can bring, as well as a deep disdain for zealotry and bigotry. In some parts of the US, that brings his very Christianity into question, apparently. To those of us in the rational world, it makes him seem pretty much in the mould of mainstream Christianity. The internet has much to answer for. |
Pa Marmos first post on this way back when was when I asked the question, and put forth the answer re Obama attending catholic schools etc. and I included several links re Obamas claims to Christianity. I don't follow politics (obviously,) but I like Obama and his wife.
My strong objection to this post was to the nasty insults and belittling tone which I don't think are called for.
Everyone has an opinion. And there are indeed three sides to every story. I'm just sick and tired of the howling down method used on this forum. WPT is calling Pa out as a child but does so with a high school rant. It's not necessary.
And good moderating? Starting a thread that sounds as if it should have a poll asking if Pa Marmo should be sent to a mental home, decapitated or just plain shot. Yeah that's just bloody lovely.
How does it go again "taking the high road, looking down on everyone else"
Should change his name to Stevic |
Actually I meant moving this thread out of a global warming one and under a new, relevant title. It was so far off topic that i didn't want to post in it any more ! Sorry should have been more specific.
I always think of David as more the Razor Ray type.... |
Haha cheers mate
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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