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Beast
Joined: 26 Oct 2011
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Yep the penny has finally dropped with the few and the realisation of us being not much chop for the next few years sets in for good but instead of asking how did we get to this point after coming of such high base we look for reasons to extend Bucks' contract even further...
Long live my brethren. you guys rock. |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | We'll just have to agree to disagree about Davis' worth to the team. I would merely pause to observe, respectfully, that offering him a new contract for about $12.50 and a stale sandwich was one of Buckley's first acts as coach. There was a clear message in that - and Davis got it. |
I think that's misrepresenting what happened. Apparently Davis had made it widely known within the club that it was to be his last year. The club planned accordingly and when Neon changed his mind late in the year most of the money was already spoken for.
He wasn't prepared to stay for what was left, fair enough, but certainly not the club's (or Buckley's) fault. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| Redlight wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | We'll just have to agree to disagree about Davis' worth to the team. I would merely pause to observe, respectfully, that offering him a new contract for about $12.50 and a stale sandwich was one of Buckley's first acts as coach. There was a clear message in that - and Davis got it. |
I think that's misrepresenting what happened. Apparently Davis had made it widely known within the club that it was to be his last year. The club planned accordingly and when Neon changed his mind late in the year most of the money was already spoken for.
He wasn't prepared to stay for what was left, fair enough, but certainly not the club's (or Buckley's) fault. |
Even though Leon stated on national television he'd still be at Collingwood if Mick was coaching, I'm pretty sure Leon knew Buckley slightly better than you and simply didn't want anything to do with him.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
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SuperSwede
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Location: Stockholm
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| Post subject: Re: Yes | |
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| mudlark wrote: | | Hiss wrote: | | I don't mind people disagreeing with my views ! Our great club was famous for its disagreements, passion and the resultant success that from that! The modern Collingwood is a micro controlled environment where difference points of view are not welcome ! These are the seeds of long term failure! Posters on here that want to crush any view that differs with theirs are ordinarily lowly achievers in their own lives lacking much intellect! Backward types who can't comprehend another point of view! I look to successful clubs like Hawthorn and more recently Port Adelaide and note their Presidents don't hang around forever! New leadership brings a new fresh perspective and should be demanded at our Club! As for reporting differing posts to the mods on here . Well that is the sort of stuff I'd expect of a spoilt selfish immature school girl! How pathetic |
Hiss. You are indeed an enigma.Most times you talk utter shite,like John Howard and the mad monk wanting to take us back to the days of yore and yet sometimes you make clever and well thought out observations and I agree with you.
We all know you love Hawthorn and you realistically and practically,barrack for them,but one has to wonder about how many more premierships Collingwood should have won,but for the pathetic and mind boggling umpiring ,we,as a club, have to endure.And I would say,that if Collingwood was allowed as much latitude as Hawthorn were yesterday,we would be unbeatable.NOT!!!that the umpiring had ANYTHING to do with yesterdays result,but the "Unsociable" Hawks have a rule book for themselves.
But I digress. If you care to cast your narrow mind back to 2002, you will probably recall,deep into the final quarter,we were a few points up ,the ball was kicked towards Chris Tarrrant and,20 meters from goal was 'MONSTERED" by Daryl White and SHOULD have been paid any one of 3 free kicks he gave away in that contest,which 'MAY" have put us 2 kicks in front with a couple of mins to play,but a free kick to Lynch less than a minute later,for WHAT??? No one still knows and the rest is history.
OR,fast forward to 2011 and just before 1/2 time,with 1 min to go,Dane Swan took a mark on the half back flank,at least the whole WORLD thought he took the mark ,all EXCEPT one umpire.At that time we were cruising at 4 1/2 goals up with perhaps a chance to kick one more before 1/2 time.Instead Geelong kicked 2 in a minute and once again,the rest is history.
How would YOU and the rest of the Saddies have been thinking if a Hawthorn style of umpiring was applied to US on those 2 days.
Just saying. |
That is simply not true. Our biggest lead during the second Q was 18 points and that was after Ben Johnson was paid a rather dubious free kick in the forward 50. When Swannie took the mark you refer to – which probably should have been allowed - we were 9 points up and from the free kick after Jolly tapped the ball out on the full the Cats scored, bringing the margin back to 3 points, which incidentally was the half time margin.
I know it’s part and parcel of being a passionate footy supporter to blame the umpires, I gave that up as a teenager when I realized that these guys are doing their best in a difficult job. Of course you can blame the umpires for our loss, some people blame the succession plan for the same loss, some people blame Mick Malthouse’s arrogance. This may sound like blasphemy, but I at least consider the possibility that we were simply beaten by a team which was better on the day. Much as I hate saying it, but it just seems the most logical reason.
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Hating Carlton makes my Life worthwhile |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Yes , of course - but questioning the umpires' calls is less confronting than, say, posing the question "What if we'd taken the field in the 2002 Grand Final with a team full of top-quality players, rather than role players sprinkled with a few stars?" or "What if our draft selections hadn't been hopeless in the early 2000s, so that we didn't have to rely upon a whole bevy of rookies to try to go back to back in 2011?" |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
Agree. I was talking about Hawthorn's drafting and team building which had it's genisis in the late 90's, early naughties. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| John Wren wrote: | | i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
Agree. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| RudeBoy wrote: | If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years.
However, one thing is beyond dispute, our recruiting of recycled players - apart from Jolly, Ball and Leigh Brown - has been shocking. This is an area our club needs to lift its game dramatically if we are to regain a top 4 berth any time soon. |
Don't see either Jolly or Ball as "recycled" players in the traditional sense. Both at or need the pointy end of elite AFL talent when recruited.
I do agree that there are only short term limited gains drafting/trading guys like Russell, Young, Lynch, and White. Players of their age rarely change their output significantly. Understand why the club opts for these bargain basement types but personally I'd prefer to go to the draft. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Museman wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
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Please tell me the person responsible for this decision is now not within 200 mile of the Westpac centre??
Because if they are we are currently being run by fuktards. |
Why the need to re-write history. Leon had advised the club he was retiring and heading back to WA. Club moved forward based on that. Leon later changed his mind however the club had already committed the majority of salary cap space. The club offered him what was left (unsigned deal for Macaffer) which he wasn't satisfied with. Club consequently re-signed Macaffer. Move on. |
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The_Staunton 
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years.
However, one thing is beyond dispute, our recruiting of recycled players - apart from Jolly, Ball and Leigh Brown - has been shocking. This is an area our club needs to lift its game dramatically if we are to regain a top 4 berth any time soon. |
Don't see either Jolly or Ball as "recycled" players in the traditional sense. Both at or need the pointy end of elite AFL talent when recruited.
I do agree that there are only short term limited gains drafting/trading guys like Russell, Young, Lynch, and White. Players of their age rarely change their output significantly. Understand why the club opts for these bargain basement types but personally I'd prefer to go to the draft. |
I say recycled players as a bit of a catch all phrase, meaning anyone from another club brought it.
Apart from those 3 we've been a disaster at it in my lifetime
We used to have a terrible reputation at the trade table balanced out with somewhat of a reluctance from other clubs to deal with us.
It's been a disaster this "sticking plaster" approach in the last few years - we've got nothing of value out of our pick ups (particularly Russell). Time to pick things up in that regard.
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We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years.
However, one thing is beyond dispute, our recruiting of recycled players - apart from Jolly, Ball and Leigh Brown - has been shocking. This is an area our club needs to lift its game dramatically if we are to regain a top 4 berth any time soon. |
Don't see either Jolly or Ball as "recycled" players in the traditional sense. Both at or need the pointy end of elite AFL talent when recruited.
I do agree that there are only short term limited gains drafting/trading guys like Russell, Young, Lynch, and White. Players of their age rarely change their output significantly. Understand why the club opts for these bargain basement types but personally I'd prefer to go to the draft. |
I say recycled players as a bit of a catch all phrase, meaning anyone from another club brought it.
Apart from those 3 we've been a disaster at it in my lifetime
We used to have a terrible reputation at the trade table balanced out with somewhat of a reluctance from other clubs to deal with us.
It's been a disaster this "sticking plaster" approach in the last few years - we've got nothing of value out of our pick ups (particularly Russell). Time to pick things up in that regard. |
We've actually gotten what we've paid for. There's been a clear focus over the last few years on utilising high draft picks which hasn't left anything to use at the trade table. The guys we have bought in have cost us next to nothing and were essentially surplus at their original clubs.
Last edited by jackcass on Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years.
However, one thing is beyond dispute, our recruiting of recycled players - apart from Jolly, Ball and Leigh Brown - has been shocking. This is an area our club needs to lift its game dramatically if we are to regain a top 4 berth any time soon. |
Don't see either Jolly or Ball as "recycled" players in the traditional sense. Both at or need the pointy end of elite AFL talent when recruited.
I do agree that there are only short term limited gains drafting/trading guys like Russell, Young, Lynch, and White. Players of their age rarely change their output significantly. Understand why the club opts for these bargain basement types but personally I'd prefer to go to the draft. |
I say recycled players as a bit of a catch all phrase, meaning anyone from another club brought it.
Apart from those 3 we've been a disaster at it in my lifetime
We used to have a terrible reputation at the trade table balanced out with somewhat of a reluctance from other clubs to deal with us.
It's been a disaster this "sticking plaster" approach in the last few years - we've got nothing of value out of our pick ups (particularly Russell). Time to pick things up in that regard. |
The interesting thing about recruiting 'recycled' players is it's coach who has the final word, not the recruiters, clearly this is just another area where Buckley has NFI.
_________________
Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years.
However, one thing is beyond dispute, our recruiting of recycled players - apart from Jolly, Ball and Leigh Brown - has been shocking. This is an area our club needs to lift its game dramatically if we are to regain a top 4 berth any time soon. |
Don't see either Jolly or Ball as "recycled" players in the traditional sense. Both at or need the pointy end of elite AFL talent when recruited.
I do agree that there are only short term limited gains drafting/trading guys like Russell, Young, Lynch, and White. Players of their age rarely change their output significantly. Understand why the club opts for these bargain basement types but personally I'd prefer to go to the draft. |
I say recycled players as a bit of a catch all phrase, meaning anyone from another club brought it.
Apart from those 3 we've been a disaster at it in my lifetime
We used to have a terrible reputation at the trade table balanced out with somewhat of a reluctance from other clubs to deal with us.
It's been a disaster this "sticking plaster" approach in the last few years - we've got nothing of value out of our pick ups (particularly Russell). Time to pick things up in that regard. |
We've actually gotten what we've paid for. There's been a clear focus over the last few years on utilising high draft picks which hasn't left anything to use at the trade table. The guys we have bought in have cost us next to nothing. |
And provided a similar output....
A futile exercise. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Museman wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | We've actually gotten what we've paid for. There's been a clear focus over the last few years on utilising high draft picks which hasn't left anything to use at the trade table. The guys we have bought in have cost us next to nothing. |
And provided a similar output....
A futile exercise. |
What I said. The flip side of the arguement is that we've got so many kids you need some senior guys around to help them find their feet. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory either but all clubs do it, even GWS and GCS have added a few of these guys. |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| jackcass wrote: | | Museman wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | We've actually gotten what we've paid for. There's been a clear focus over the last few years on utilising high draft picks which hasn't left anything to use at the trade table. The guys we have bought in have cost us next to nothing. |
And provided a similar output....
A futile exercise. |
What I said. The flip side of the arguement is that we've got so many kids you need some senior guys around to help them find their feet. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory either but all clubs do it, even GWS and GCS have added a few of these guys. |
some of these guys we have picked up have had a greater off field value than what we have or haven't seen onfield. young and lynch can be knocked by supporters but both did come from successful environments.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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