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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| The_Staunton wrote: |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
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Please tell me the person responsible for this decision is now not within 200 mile of the Westpac centre??
Because if they are we are currently being run by fuktards. |
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The_Staunton 
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | Lone Ranger wrote: | 2011 Copeland:
1st Scott Pendlebury
2nd Dane Swan
3rd Travis Cloke
4th Luke Ball
5th Leon Davis
6th Dale Thomas
7th Ben Reid
8th Harry O’Brien
9th Jarryd Blair
10th Chris Tarrant
So in 2012-14 timeframe had 2 of those retire, and kicked Thomas out. Still had 7 of the 10 plus Beams, Maxwell, and Shaw(who we also kicked out) as the nucleus.
Pretty much the same nucleus yet we have gone from a machine to 11th.
Now the nucleus is getting older, retiring, leaving and we are satisfied to say we are building without asking what went wrong. If you dont learn from history/mistakes, you are doomed to repeat it. |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
Could we have taken that group and done any better? After Tarrant retired gone after Brian Lake? Turned the Thomas pick into something better than Freeman? Interesting list |
If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years. |
I'll give you that, I'm prepared to be patient, but taking two kids with injuries (particularly Scharenberg over Aish) just seems wrong to me.
I would have taken Aish in a heartbeat over someone with a serious foot injury. |
Well, Freeman didn't have an injury at the time. He was looking like a real find but did the damage in the NAB Cup game in February. |
I may stand corrected on that than - thought he had a history of hamstring troubles
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Getting Clarke back was plainly a mistake. Letting Davis go wasn't. |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah?
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We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Getting Clarke back was plainly a mistake. Letting Davis go wasn't. |
Disagree with that, Leon was All-Australian in 2011. To lowball him with an offer and then pick up Marty Clarke for 3 years was ridiculous. Leon for 1 more year would have been a good option.
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah? |
yeah, and some afl experience. this then goes back to the statement that we're a young team.
on taylor adams foot skills, i don't think it is terribly important that he has elite foot skills so long as he keeps the ball moving forward. though, i do think they will improve much like sinclair's.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| I'm a huge rap for Adams. Future captain I reckon. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Yes. So was Heater. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Getting Clarke back was plainly a mistake. Letting Davis go wasn't. |
Yeah you know what you're talking about 
Top 6 for possessions in the best performed collingwood year in recent memory....
A 33, 23, 20 finals series in that year and as skilled as any player on our list....
yuh...why would you retain that......
fook me swinging, some people.... |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah? |
yeah, and some afl experience. this then goes back to the statement that we're a young team.
on taylor adams foot skills, i don't think it is terribly important that he has elite foot skills so long as he keeps the ball moving forward. though, i do think they will improve much like sinclair's. |
Tend to think in the modern AFL if you can't run or kick you can't play.
Adams decision making is woeful. Not on him as a scapegoat as much as some, but haven't seen much to justify a trade for Heater for him.
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Post subject: | |
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| John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah? |
yeah, and some afl experience. this then goes back to the statement that we're a young team.
on taylor adams foot skills, i don't think it is terribly important that he has elite foot skills so long as he keeps the ball moving forward. though, i do think they will improve much like sinclair's. |
Tend to think in the modern AFL if you can't run or kick you can't play.
Adams decision making is woeful. Not on him as a scapegoat as much as some, but haven't seen much to justify a trade for Heater for him.
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Post subject: | |
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| John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah? |
yeah, and some afl experience. this then goes back to the statement that we're a young team.
on taylor adams foot skills, i don't think it is terribly important that he has elite foot skills so long as he keeps the ball moving forward. though, i do think they will improve much like sinclair's. |
DP
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances...
Last edited by The_Staunton on Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| We'll just have to agree to disagree about Davis' worth to the team. I would merely pause to observe, respectfully, that offering him a new contract for about $12.50 and a stale sandwich was one of Buckley's first acts as coach. There was a clear message in that - and Davis got it. |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah? |
yeah, and some afl experience. this then goes back to the statement that we're a young team.
on taylor adams foot skills, i don't think it is terribly important that he has elite foot skills so long as he keeps the ball moving forward. though, i do think they will improve much like sinclair's. |
Tend to think in the modern AFL if you can't run or kick you can't play.
Adams decision making is woeful. Not on him as a scapegoat as much as some, but haven't seen much to justify a trade for Heater for him. |
some of the things he did were head scratching. i can't help but think another year under his belt plus playing on the g in front of crowds greater than ten will stand him in good stead. this year he'll have had a great education with ball, pendles etc. not sure who he would have learnt from at gws.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Post subject: | |
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| John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50. |
I'm not a rap for Taylor Adams - I don't think his foot skills are good enough. Clinton Young was a risk but of those 3 I'd still rather have Heath to be honest. It's interesting because we're talking about (rationally) a rebuild that could take 3-5 years to flourish. That leaves every chance of NB being a sort of Matthew Primus figure - built the list then someone else takes it to the next level.
Freeman also seems to be the one I'm sleeping on, just reading the comments. I'll still maintain Scharenberg is a terrible pick compared to Aish. And I'd say I'd also add to what you said about contested ball we need to improve our (ugh, hate this phrase) run and spread. We get clogged up far too many times under NB where the bloke with the ball has no idea where to kick it. I can't remember too many goals from one end to the other, so part of what you are saying about the rebuild would involve the kids getting a tank in them yeah? |
yeah, and some afl experience. this then goes back to the statement that we're a young team.
on taylor adams foot skills, i don't think it is terribly important that he has elite foot skills so long as he keeps the ball moving forward. though, i do think they will improve much like sinclair's. |
Tend to think in the modern AFL if you can't run or kick you can't play.
Adams decision making is woeful. Not on him as a scapegoat as much as some, but haven't seen much to justify a trade for Heater for him. |
some of the things he did were head scratching. i can't help but think another year under his belt plus playing on the g in front of crowds greater than ten will stand him in good stead. this year he'll have had a great education with ball, pendles etc. not sure who he would have learnt from at gws. |
That's my problem with anyway - you can't carry a poor decision maker in your side these days. As I said I'm not holding him up as the sides scapegoat but he had a pretty poor season.
You might be right, but I tend to think if someone can't make good decisions under pressure it's REALLY hard to fix.
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