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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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I'm prepared to hold off on the Bucks bashing for one more season, but I fear already the non-"perceptive fellow" are preparing their list of excuses for 2015.
According to the Lollipop and Sunshine Brigade the last three years have not been Buckley's fault in any way (although they conveniently overlook changing a winning culture for some new undefined "Buckley culture"). Instead the excuses were based on the fact of so many injuries. This year they added kids to the injuries excuse.
Now with further retirements and the loss of Beams the excuse for next year will be along these lines:
"We have kids out there who need experience. Obviously we are not going to be challenging for a flag in the next four years, so Bucks must be given at least five more years. Extend his contract now."
Come on non-"perceptive fellow". Tell us you will not use this excuse as a reason to give Bucks another five years. 
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well.
Last edited by jackcass on Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| The_Staunton wrote: | [quote="jackcass"][quote="The_Staunton"][quote="jackcass"][quote="The_Staunton"][quote="Wokko"][quote="Lone Ranger"]2011 and we are a better team than Hawthorn, and younger.
2014 and both teams have had the same nucleus 2011-2014 yet look at what Hawks have done, and look at what we have done in the 3 years.
So what changed in 2012?
Very frustrating to watch Hawks today.[/quote]
We barely scraped past Hawthorn in the 2011 prelim.[/quote]
Our top 7 disposal winners that night - 2 are left (Swan and Pendles)
Their top 7 disposal winners that night - 7 are left, 6 just won a flag
Interesting point to start[/quote]
And who are the other 5?[/quote]
Ball, Davis, Thomas, Maxwell and Shaw (joint with Trav)
Ben Johnson was next with 17 (equal with Rusty) and Harry O after that
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2011/041020110923.html
Swan, Pendlebury, Cloke, Sidebottom, Blair, Reid and Toovey are the only players from that 22 guaranteed to be there next year
Beams and Harry tbd
[b]Ball, Davis, Thomas, Maxwell, Shaw, Johnson, Wellingham, Krakouer, Jolly, Tarrant, Dawes, Leigh Brown and Dids all gone
[/b]
Hawthorn have kept: Birchall, Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale, Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, Puopolo, Delicious, Schoenmakers, Sewell, Shiels, Smith, Stratton, Suckling and Whitecross (16 of 22)
Deperted: Bailey, Bateman, Franklin, Guerra, Murphy and Osborne[/quote]
And just how many of them would you like to have on our list in 2015?[/quote]
The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Not that I know of. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| collie dog wrote: | I'm prepared to hold off on the Bucks bashing for one more season, but I fear already the non-"perceptive fellow" are preparing their list of excuses for 2015.
According to the Lollipop and Sunshine Brigade the last three years have not been Buckley's fault in any way (although they conveniently overlook changing a winning culture for some new undefined "Buckley culture"). Instead the excuses were based on the fact of so many injuries. This year they added kids to the injuries excuse.
Now with further retirements and the loss of Beams the excuse for next year will be along these lines:
"We have kids out there who need experience. Obviously we are not going to be challenging for a flag in the next four years, so Bucks must be given at least five more years. Extend his contract now."
Come on non-"perceptive fellow". Tell us you will not use this excuse as a reason to give Bucks another five years. |
That would give credence to the premise that providing valid mitigation constitutes an excuse. |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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Lone Ranger
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Location: Macedon Ranges
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2011 Copeland:
1st Scott Pendlebury
2nd Dane Swan
3rd Travis Cloke
4th Luke Ball
5th Leon Davis
6th Dale Thomas
7th Ben Reid
8th Harry O’Brien
9th Jarryd Blair
10th Chris Tarrant
So in 2012-14 timeframe had 2 of those retire, and kicked Thomas out. Still had 7 of the 10 plus Beams, Maxwell, and Shaw(who we also kicked out) as the nucleus.
Pretty much the same nucleus yet we have gone from a machine to 11th.
Now the nucleus is getting older, retiring, leaving and we are satisfied to say we are building without asking what went wrong. If you dont learn from history/mistakes, you are doomed to repeat it. |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| Post subject: Re: Yes | |
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| The Prototype wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | And you know this because.... |
He's a club cactus.
I mean plant. |
the club is cactus. don't you read what's being posted?
_________________
Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either.
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league.
_________________
Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Lone Ranger wrote: | 2011 Copeland:
1st Scott Pendlebury
2nd Dane Swan
3rd Travis Cloke
4th Luke Ball
5th Leon Davis
6th Dale Thomas
7th Ben Reid
8th Harry O’Brien
9th Jarryd Blair
10th Chris Tarrant
So in 2012-14 timeframe had 2 of those retire, and kicked Thomas out. Still had 7 of the 10 plus Beams, Maxwell, and Shaw(who we also kicked out) as the nucleus.
Pretty much the same nucleus yet we have gone from a machine to 11th.
Now the nucleus is getting older, retiring, leaving and we are satisfied to say we are building without asking what went wrong. If you dont learn from history/mistakes, you are doomed to repeat it. |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
Could we have taken that group and done any better? After Tarrant retired gone after Brian Lake? Turned the Thomas pick into something better than Freeman? Interesting list
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| Post subject: | |
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| John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument.
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | Lone Ranger wrote: | 2011 Copeland:
1st Scott Pendlebury
2nd Dane Swan
3rd Travis Cloke
4th Luke Ball
5th Leon Davis
6th Dale Thomas
7th Ben Reid
8th Harry O’Brien
9th Jarryd Blair
10th Chris Tarrant
So in 2012-14 timeframe had 2 of those retire, and kicked Thomas out. Still had 7 of the 10 plus Beams, Maxwell, and Shaw(who we also kicked out) as the nucleus.
Pretty much the same nucleus yet we have gone from a machine to 11th.
Now the nucleus is getting older, retiring, leaving and we are satisfied to say we are building without asking what went wrong. If you dont learn from history/mistakes, you are doomed to repeat it. |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
Could we have taken that group and done any better? After Tarrant retired gone after Brian Lake? Turned the Thomas pick into something better than Freeman? Interesting list |
If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years.
However, one thing is beyond dispute, our recruiting of recycled players - apart from Jolly, Ball and Leigh Brown - has been shocking. This is an area our club needs to lift its game dramatically if we are to regain a top 4 berth any time soon. |
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The_Staunton
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | Lone Ranger wrote: | 2011 Copeland:
1st Scott Pendlebury
2nd Dane Swan
3rd Travis Cloke
4th Luke Ball
5th Leon Davis
6th Dale Thomas
7th Ben Reid
8th Harry O’Brien
9th Jarryd Blair
10th Chris Tarrant
So in 2012-14 timeframe had 2 of those retire, and kicked Thomas out. Still had 7 of the 10 plus Beams, Maxwell, and Shaw(who we also kicked out) as the nucleus.
Pretty much the same nucleus yet we have gone from a machine to 11th.
Now the nucleus is getting older, retiring, leaving and we are satisfied to say we are building without asking what went wrong. If you dont learn from history/mistakes, you are doomed to repeat it. |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
Could we have taken that group and done any better? After Tarrant retired gone after Brian Lake? Turned the Thomas pick into something better than Freeman? Interesting list |
If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years. |
I'll give you that, I'm prepared to be patient, but taking two kids with injuries (particularly Scharenberg over Aish) just seems wrong to me.
I would have taken Aish in a heartbeat over someone with a serious foot injury.
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| Post subject: | |
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | The point was more to show the turnover in personnel between then and now
There was a continuity in Hawthorn where they kept their players together and we clearly haven't
The point was to answer the OP about what changed in 2012 to now, as a discussion point
And out of them - if you are asking - I'd rather have Heath than Taylor Adams. Dawes and Wellingham being traded for Grundy and Broomhead? Does that need an answer
Where we clearly lag behind Hawthorn though is in picking up recycled players |
Yep, agree.
Think it goes back to even the late '90s though, they've had a better balance in their list and as a consequence been able to trade well. |
We had the perfect storm in the mid-late 90s though, when our drafting, our player development AND our trading was awful (hello Dermott Brereton on 700K a year)
Under Malthouse we drafted poorly and traded poorly to start with (Chad Morrison, Scott Cummings, Danny Roach et al) generally, but our player development improved because we got more money.
Now (probably from the Pendles draft onwards) we draft really well, we develop talent really well, but our trading (outside Ball and Jolly and maybe even Leigh Brown) is just awful. It's the one area we've continually got wrong - the cast offs we've picked up in the last few years have just been abysmal Collingwood players (Jordan Russell is one of the worst players I've ever seen - Lynch and White and Young aren't too far behind in the spud department).
I think Scharenberg over Aish was a disaster as well but time will tell on that one. What's scary to a lot of us now is that players just keep leaving, which has never been an issue for us, and that's where a lot of people are concerned about the man management of NB.
It's interesting too, we're sort of all depressed at the moment and wondering how we can be Hawthorn. Hawthorn won back to back flags after winning Prelims by less than a kick. Varcoe kicks a goal or the umprire bounces it instead of paying a stupid free kick against Port and we might be talking about them like us from 10/11. A great side with 1 flag to show. We kick one more goal in 07 in the prelim and we're like Hawthorn in 08 and have a chance to pinch a flag against a pretty poor Port Adelaide side. Sometimes you can't help bad luck either. |
i wouldn't have thought we're all depressed. i certainly am not. we don't need to be another hawthorn. we simply need to be better than them. we need to be back at the forefront of the league. |
There's a lot of people who feel we've buggered up our dynasty and Hawthorn now are where we should be. Hawthorn sadly are a club that gets a lot of things right - setting aside their Milnes of a supporter base right now.
That's causing a lot of people to feel down about the club right now.
So as a footy debate, how would you think we can get better than them? I'll admit I have very little faith that the current list or approach is going to do that as an up front point for argument. |
not entirely sure. it's a predicament where the fullness of time will give us our answer. by that i mean we've sown the seeds and set the course. we have some saplings but don't know if they will flourish. if they do, i suspect everyone will be asking wtf did collingwood do and why weren't we doing it. if they don't flourish, we've essentially wasted 3-4 years and have to start again.
with the afl game now predicated on winning the contested ball i see the likes of what we have recently recruited coming into their own. we've got some absolute nutters who, once they build themselves up, will tear apart the game. thomas, freeman, adams to name three. many supporters have been derisive of the midgets we've recruited but i think there might be something in that. scharenberg off the half back line was going to be a major part of that, so too, i suspect was clinton young or someone with the adept foot skills to deliver the ball into the f50.
_________________
Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Post subject: | |
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| The_Staunton wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | The_Staunton wrote: | | Lone Ranger wrote: | 2011 Copeland:
1st Scott Pendlebury
2nd Dane Swan
3rd Travis Cloke
4th Luke Ball
5th Leon Davis
6th Dale Thomas
7th Ben Reid
8th Harry O’Brien
9th Jarryd Blair
10th Chris Tarrant
So in 2012-14 timeframe had 2 of those retire, and kicked Thomas out. Still had 7 of the 10 plus Beams, Maxwell, and Shaw(who we also kicked out) as the nucleus.
Pretty much the same nucleus yet we have gone from a machine to 11th.
Now the nucleus is getting older, retiring, leaving and we are satisfied to say we are building without asking what went wrong. If you dont learn from history/mistakes, you are doomed to repeat it. |
The worst thing about that is still Leon being flicked to make room in the salary cap for Marty Clarke.
Could we have taken that group and done any better? After Tarrant retired gone after Brian Lake? Turned the Thomas pick into something better than Freeman? Interesting list |
If Freeman and Scharenberg eventually deliver the goods, we may all be praising our recruiters. Truth is, we won't know for 2 more years. |
I'll give you that, I'm prepared to be patient, but taking two kids with injuries (particularly Scharenberg over Aish) just seems wrong to me.
I would have taken Aish in a heartbeat over someone with a serious foot injury. |
Well, Freeman didn't have an injury at the time. He was looking like a real find but did the damage in the NAB Cup game in February.
Last edited by Pies4shaw on Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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