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Constructively finding answers

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:21 pm
Post subject: Constructively finding answersReply with quote

OK, enough of this squabbling (me included) between happy and "perceptive fellow". Assuming we are all Collingwood supporters, let's acknowledge our club is facing significant issues/problems/hurdles, whatever you want to call them (but not a crisis imo) in our attempts to rebuild our team into a top 4 and Premiership contender. That should not be in doubt.

Putting aside whether Bucks is a good coach or not, since Nicks is clearly divided on that issue and nothing said here is likely to shift opinions either way, it is pretty clear that our club is experiencing stress and strain at present. Fwiw I think Bucks is a good coach and will grow into a great coach with multiple Premiership success with us in the future. However, only time will tell on that one.

Given the turnover of players - for a multitude of reasons, which we don't need to revisit here - it seems a legitimate question to ask what is the spirit and culture like now at our club? Remember the consultancy firm 'Leading Teams' were brought into our club to oversee a 'cultural change' process. I've already been on record as being critical of their methods and philosophy, because of the way they try to stamp out individualism by emphasising 'group pressure' on individuals. It appears that they closely guard the secrecy of their methods and processes, since their financial model rests on their 'intelectual capital', so it's hard to accurately gauge their success or failure at our club. Nevertheless, I do worry that team spirit, mateship and camaraderie seems to have been somewhat damaged since their involvement in our club.

Maybe this is simply a reflection of a team that's currently unsuccessful. Winners are grinners after all. So without engaging in a 'blame Bucks' game, which is rather pointless (and boring), I wonder if people think there is currently a 'culture problem' and secondly, whether the use of outside consultants is a likely contributing factor?
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Lazza 



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Constructively finding answersReply with quote

RudeBoy wrote:
OK, enough of this squabbling (me included) between happy and "perceptive fellow". Assuming we are all Collingwood supporters, let's acknowledge our club is facing significant issues/problems/hurdles, whatever you want to call them (but not a crisis imo) in our attempts to rebuild our team into a top 4 and Premiership contender. That should not be in doubt.

Putting aside whether Bucks is a good coach or not, since Nicks is clearly divided on that issue and nothing said here is likely to shift opinions either way, it is pretty clear that our club is experiencing stress and strain at present. Fwiw I think Bucks is a good coach and will grow into a great coach with multiple Premiership success with us in the future. However, only time will tell on that one.

Given the turnover of players - for a multitude of reasons, which we don't need to revisit here - it seems a legitimate question to ask what is the spirit and culture like now at our club? Remember the consultancy firm 'Leading Teams' were brought into our club to oversee a 'cultural change' process. I've already been on record as being critical of their methods and philosophy, because of the way they try to stamp out individualism by emphasising 'group pressure' on individuals. It appears that they closely guard the secrecy of their methods and processes, since their financial model rests on their 'intelectual capital', so it's hard to accurately gauge their success or failure at our club. Nevertheless, I do worry that team spirit, mateship and camaraderie seems to have been somewhat damaged since their involvement in our club.

Maybe this is simply a reflection of a team that's currently unsuccessful. Winners are grinners after all. So without engaging in a 'blame Bucks' game, which is rather pointless (and boring), I wonder if people think there is currently a 'culture problem' and secondly, whether the use of outside consultants is a likely contributing factor?


With all due respect, this will only invite a whole lot of unsubstantiated opinions and stupid rumours which will then be taken as gospel by the "perceptive fellow" and dirty dicks.
The ONLY people who would know this issue inimately would be at the club. Maybe it is a damn fine question for the AGM, RB.
However asking it here is just more cut up carrots for the vomit to spew out from the usual Collingwood/Eddie/Bucks haters and the pretend fans.... Rolling Eyes
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Museman 



Joined: 06 Jul 2009


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes there appears to be an issue...

Problem is someone needs to wear that....

And if it is leading teams someone needs to wear that.....

Someone put them there.

In the end it boils down to the boring blame game anyway.

(and it's bs that somebody closed the bar)
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CarringbushCigar Taurus



Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Bar re-opening with a name change and extra scheduled delivery of Dimple.
Unfortunately there will still be baby-sitting facilities in operation.
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CarringbushCigar Taurus



Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Constructively finding answersReply with quote

RudeBoy wrote:
OK, enough of this squabbling (me included) between happy and "perceptive fellow". Assuming we are all Collingwood supporters, let's acknowledge our club is facing significant issues/problems/hurdles, whatever you want to call them (but not a crisis imo) in our attempts to rebuild our team into a top 4 and Premiership contender. That should not be in doubt.

Putting aside whether Bucks is a good coach or not, since Nicks is clearly divided on that issue and nothing said here is likely to shift opinions either way, it is pretty clear that our club is experiencing stress and strain at present. Fwiw I think Bucks is a good coach and will grow into a great coach with multiple Premiership success with us in the future. However, only time will tell on that one.

Given the turnover of players - for a multitude of reasons, which we don't need to revisit here - it seems a legitimate question to ask what is the spirit and culture like now at our club? Remember the consultancy firm 'Leading Teams' were brought into our club to oversee a 'cultural change' process. I've already been on record as being critical of their methods and philosophy, because of the way they try to stamp out individualism by emphasising 'group pressure' on individuals. It appears that they closely guard the secrecy of their methods and processes, since their financial model rests on their 'intelectual capital', so it's hard to accurately gauge their success or failure at our club. Nevertheless, I do worry that team spirit, mateship and camaraderie seems to have been somewhat damaged since their involvement in our club.

Maybe this is simply a reflection of a team that's currently unsuccessful. Winners are grinners after all. So without engaging in a 'blame Bucks' game, which is rather pointless (and boring), I wonder if people think there is currently a 'culture problem' and secondly, whether the use of outside consultants is a likely contributing factor?


Nice - first step to solving a problem can often be admitting u have one.
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leonmagic Pisces



Joined: 16 Aug 2004


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:58 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

just seems like there's no stability or real belief among the playing group anymore.

not sure if it's "buckley's fault" or not, as someone said, only those inside the bubble truly know. i do know that things would be different if malthouse was still around. not sure our ladder position would be much different though so who really cares.

we'll be fine soon enough, but oh how i would love to fast forward the next 2 or 3 seasons
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Constructively finding answersReply with quote

Lazza wrote:
RudeBoy wrote:
OK, enough of this squabbling (me included) between happy and "perceptive fellow". Assuming we are all Collingwood supporters, let's acknowledge our club is facing significant issues/problems/hurdles, whatever you want to call them (but not a crisis imo) in our attempts to rebuild our team into a top 4 and Premiership contender. That should not be in doubt.

Putting aside whether Bucks is a good coach or not, since Nicks is clearly divided on that issue and nothing said here is likely to shift opinions either way, it is pretty clear that our club is experiencing stress and strain at present. Fwiw I think Bucks is a good coach and will grow into a great coach with multiple Premiership success with us in the future. However, only time will tell on that one.

Given the turnover of players - for a multitude of reasons, which we don't need to revisit here - it seems a legitimate question to ask what is the spirit and culture like now at our club? Remember the consultancy firm 'Leading Teams' were brought into our club to oversee a 'cultural change' process. I've already been on record as being critical of their methods and philosophy, because of the way they try to stamp out individualism by emphasising 'group pressure' on individuals. It appears that they closely guard the secrecy of their methods and processes, since their financial model rests on their 'intelectual capital', so it's hard to accurately gauge their success or failure at our club. Nevertheless, I do worry that team spirit, mateship and camaraderie seems to have been somewhat damaged since their involvement in our club.

Maybe this is simply a reflection of a team that's currently unsuccessful. Winners are grinners after all. So without engaging in a 'blame Bucks' game, which is rather pointless (and boring), I wonder if people think there is currently a 'culture problem' and secondly, whether the use of outside consultants is a likely contributing factor?


With all due respect, this will only invite a whole lot of unsubstantiated opinions and stupid rumours which will then be taken as gospel by the "perceptive fellow" and dirty dicks.
The ONLY people who would know this issue inimately would be at the club. Maybe it is a damn fine question for the AGM, RB.
However asking it here is just more cut up carrots for the vomit to spew out from the usual Collingwood/Eddie/Bucks haters and the pretend fans.... Rolling Eyes


Or the equally boring moaning about the "perceptive fellow"... time people at either extreme moved on.
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ThePieMind 



Joined: 11 Apr 2009


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:19 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

In absence of establishing an enduring culture clubs just lurch from the Charisma and competence of one coach to the other.

The process is entirely hit or miss.

LT have achieved success at what are arguable the best 3 teams of the last decade - GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS.
If we are prepared to poach their support staff to improve our club then I don't see why using LT has come in for such criticism given the results at these clubs.

We will have teething problems of course and some players may resist but at the end of the day building a sustainably success culture is worth the effort.

Swans have proven a strong culture underpinns effective coaching transitions and that's what its all about.
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John Wren Virgo

"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."


Joined: 15 Jul 2007


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:22 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

it is almost a time honoured tradition, the rudeboy post calling for an end to hostilities between the warring factions whomever they are.

it reminds me of one of the scene in the life of brian when the blashpemer was stoned.

in answer to your question rudie, since the mm years the culture has changed and is continuing to shift. sometimes people do not adapt or move with it and end up a poor fit. if you can't adapt, you die. if players want to jump off the bus let them.

how much do we truly understand what things were like back under mick? he had his own way but it is well known buckley was unimpressed with the way shaw and didak were treated way back then and he thought more should have been done. it's no coincidence they're both gone. we should also look at pert and the type of person he comes across as. very rarely is anyone left in any doubt as to what his views are and how he believes people should behave. i see him as a very strong individual.

fwiw, i think the club is led extremely well. i also think that the sea of new faces gives the club every opportunity to reset and align itself to the single focus of winning a flag. that we might have to take a few steps back to go forward is neither here nor there for me.

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:29 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

leonmagic wrote:
just seems like there's no stability or real belief among the playing group anymore.

not sure if it's "buckley's fault" or not, as someone said, only those inside the bubble truly know. i do know that things would be different if malthouse was still around. not sure our ladder position would be much different though so who really cares.

we'll be fine soon enough, but oh how i would love to fast forward the next 2 or 3 seasons


Agree that when you watched us play in the 2nd half of the 2014 season there seemed to be a lack of belief. Is that a consequence of the lack of team stability throughout the year? Is it a coincidence that our best footy aligned with a period of several "No Change" or minimal change selections. Also think the lose of Maxy was critical to the onfield transformation 1st half to 2nd half. Who will fill that void in 2015?

Don't know much about Leading Teams but their success rate seems to speak for itself. It may well have ruffled a few feathers at the maggies (pun intended) but who can say if that's a good or bad thing. Certainly not convinced they aim to wipe out individuality, just get people to take ownership and be accountable. I think our players are being coached to take the game on as we saw early in the year and individual flair is a pretty important factor in delivering that.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the next 2-3 seasons. Think it'll be an exciting ride.
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King Malta Leo

RIP Flip


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:29 pm
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Constantly reading two groups/gangs/factions/whatever insult each other over and over in every thread is becoming extremely tedious and making reading this board a bit annoying.

Some logical debate without the constant abuse (from both sides mind you) would be pretty handy.
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

ThePieMind wrote:
In absence of establishing an enduring culture clubs just lurch from the Charisma and competence of one coach to the other.

The process is entirely hit or miss.

LT have achieved success at what are arguable the best 3 teams of the last decade - GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS.
If we are prepared to poach their support staff to improve our club then I don't see why using LT has come in for such criticism given the results at these clubs.

We will have teething problems of course and some players may resist but at the end of the day building a sustainably success culture is worth the effort.

Swans have proven a strong culture underpinns effective coaching transitions and that's what its all about.


Yes, they have worked with the Hawks and Swans. I don't believe LT has worked with Geelong. I do know they've been working with the Bulldogs for several years, with not much success it seems. Obviously, it's a system which some people embrace, but equally there are those who find it intrusive and destructive. It partly depends on the personality types of those involved in it, which will vary from club to club.

I also know that LT were not involved at our club in 2010 when we won a flag.
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:37 pm
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Nick's 3rd civil war is as brutal as I've seen. Collingwood fans used to be a stoic bunch, but like any great empire, success has made us weak and soft. Making prelims for years on end, then a Premiership, then another Grand Final we all just started assuming it was going to last forever.

We forget how bad things were in '00, or in '05 '06 or even in the dark 'sack mick' days in '09. We began to not just demand success, but to expect it and feel entitled to it. Entitlement culture has eaten us alive and it makes me sick.

Whether Buckley is the messiah or just a very naughty boy is yet to be seen, but I've seen largely positive outcomes so far and when we turned at 8-3 all the whiny little bitches were wonderfully quiet. Following a sports team is meant to bring emotion and joy but half those on here act like depressed 17 year old girls. If the football isn't bringing you joy then you're just hanging on out of habit, maybe even an addiction. Take a break from Nicks until trade time then go and enjoy some Horse racing and Cricket over spring/summer.
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John Wren Virgo

"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."


Joined: 15 Jul 2007


PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:43 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

jackcass wrote:
leonmagic wrote:
just seems like there's no stability or real belief among the playing group anymore.

not sure if it's "buckley's fault" or not, as someone said, only those inside the bubble truly know. i do know that things would be different if malthouse was still around. not sure our ladder position would be much different though so who really cares.

we'll be fine soon enough, but oh how i would love to fast forward the next 2 or 3 seasons


Agree that when you watched us play in the 2nd half of the 2014 season there seemed to be a lack of belief. Is that a consequence of the lack of team stability throughout the year? Is it a coincidence that our best footy aligned with a period of several "No Change" or minimal change selections. Also think the lose of Maxy was critical to the onfield transformation 1st half to 2nd half. Who will fill that void in 2015?



lots of young guys yet to cement their spot in the team. many of our guys are not at that stage where they have security or a sense of belonging and this is likely to inhibit performance as much as anything.

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:55 pm
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John Wren wrote:
jackcass wrote:
leonmagic wrote:
just seems like there's no stability or real belief among the playing group anymore.

not sure if it's "buckley's fault" or not, as someone said, only those inside the bubble truly know. i do know that things would be different if malthouse was still around. not sure our ladder position would be much different though so who really cares.

we'll be fine soon enough, but oh how i would love to fast forward the next 2 or 3 seasons


Agree that when you watched us play in the 2nd half of the 2014 season there seemed to be a lack of belief. Is that a consequence of the lack of team stability throughout the year? Is it a coincidence that our best footy aligned with a period of several "No Change" or minimal change selections. Also think the lose of Maxy was critical to the onfield transformation 1st half to 2nd half. Who will fill that void in 2015?



lots of young guys yet to cement their spot in the team. many of our guys are not at that stage where they have security or a sense of belonging and this is likely to inhibit performance as much as anything.


Totally agree.
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