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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | uncanny wrote: | Gerard Whateley the ABC commentator has Nathan Buckley in the commentary box tomorrow, as he did last week. I hear Gerard say on radio earlier in the week what a privilege it was to have Bucks on hand during the call for the Hawks Power clash. He put it as having a hotline to the coaches box.
Gerard described a debate between Bucks and Mark Maclure in the last q before power made their charge. Maclure said power should go shorter and faster in the forward line. Bucks gave him all these logical reasons why it shouldn't happen. Stick to the structure. They went small and power came storming home. Footy instinct and smarts over structure and process was the way to go.
Nathan is as honest as the day is long and meticulous in his planning. Embracing LT goes with this mindset. This is a great strength of his. I think we need more balance though. Footy clubs thrive on fun and characters. Remember the brat pack? It threw up problems every now and then but they got the job done and imbued a winning spirit into the team. Could we look at the Australian Cricket team's recent experience as a guide? The ultra professional, process driven methods of Mickey Arthur didn't cut it. Boof Lehmann comes in and relies on challenging and backing players to harness their talent, ensuring all players buy into the team spirit and play like mates. a key philosophy is that it's got to be fun if you are going to play well. It reminds me of the football instincts of a Ken Hinkley and his forthright manner empowering his players to take the game on, all the while playing for each other might be what's lacking with the pies.
Let's not throw out LT and the methods employed but can we overlay it with more passion, magpie spirit and mateship? |
That highlighted passage is what I find most surprising and worrying about Buckley as coach.
It's completely the opposite to what I expected from him when appointed coach.
His constant selection of some players and comments about rewarding effort when it comes to team selection earlier in the year only adds wait to the Whateley observations. |
process is very important when you're dealing with inexperience or learning the trade. following a process should produce the same outcome each and every time. |
On the other hand, its exactly what I expected when he became coach. Following a process rigidly might lead you to create some nice paint by numbers water colours of some flowers in a vase but it will never lead you to produce a Van Gogh, or any other masterpiece. That is one glaring difference between Buckley and Malthouse. Malthouse had intuition and process; Buckley's only got process. Leading Teams can't create intuitive thinking; I doubt it can even enhance it. Will LT help the players then? Such processes based on organisational/group psychology are more hit and miss than many give them credit. They work best when their workings aren't somehow revealed. They fail particularly when the message they promote contradicts or is undermined by the workings of the official working culture that has hired the change agents in the first place.
Apart from sacking Buckley (and okay this isn't the thread to advocate that I concede), the best solution is to surround him with more intuitive football thinkers and give them carte blanche to challenge his thinking whenever they see fit. Obviously in front of the players may not be appropriate but such a solution maybe the only way to get him to think outside his small process/effort driven box. Would it work? Maybe. Intuition isn't innate, it is learnt. Perhaps even Buckley could evolve under such a regime. |
i'd love to project forward by 15-20 years to see what buckley the coach would be like (on the assumption he maintained longevity in the game). malthouse has 20 years experience on buckley.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
1. everyone has an opinion. Fell free to exercise it but try not to abuse it.
2. Excessive negativity is a drainer. There are a number of avenues available to people with mental illness, use them, don't clog up a football bulletin board with your negativity. Consider others feelings. 3.
3. The kharma bus will get Trolls. Nothing surer. |
Amusingly, I suffer from terrible anxiety and depression but am as far from the 'anti' crowd as you can get without joining the crusade against them. I don't subscribe to 'arsehole' as a chapter in the DSM. |
Point taken.
Plenty of people suffer from some form of mental illness and do their best to not burden others.
Plenty of people have no discernable mental illness other than a deluded opinion of self worth and choose to inflict their opinion on others at every possible opportunity
Plenty of people are utter fkn pessimistic cnuts. Not a mental illness as such and not (to my limited knowledge) an actual personality disorder, but when combined with the affliction immediately above it creates an experience that justifies nuclear warfare.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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CarringbushCigar 
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
1. everyone has an opinion. Fell free to exercise it but try not to abuse it.
2. Excessive negativity is a drainer. There are a number of avenues available to people with mental illness, use them, don't clog up a football bulletin board with your negativity. Consider others feelings. 3.
3. The kharma bus will get Trolls. Nothing surer. |
Amusingly, I suffer from terrible anxiety and depression but am as far from the 'anti' crowd as you can get without joining the crusade against them. I don't subscribe to 'arsehole' as a chapter in the DSM. |
Point taken.
Plenty of people suffer from some form of mental illness and do their best to not burden others.
Plenty of people have no discernable mental illness other than a deluded opinion of self worth and choose to inflict their opinion on others at every possible opportunity
Plenty of people are utter fkn pessimistic cnuts. Not a mental illness as such and not (to my limited knowledge) an actual personality disorder, but when combined with the affliction immediately above it creates an experience that justifies nuclear warfare. |
Plenty of people hold onto previously formed beliefs despite the mountains of evidence against that view.
Studies have found that highly optimistic people are slower at processing information that is against these optimistic hopes.
The earth is slow, but the ox is patient. |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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| John Wren wrote: |
i'd love to project forward by 15-20 years to see what buckley the coach would be like (on the assumption he maintained longevity in the game). malthouse has 20 years experience on buckley. |
You are kidding aren't you? Bucks will get this gig and that's all. He will be treated like Mark Neeld by other clubs after he stuffed up this premiership dynasty.
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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Breadcrawl
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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Good to see we are respecting the intentions of the OP and not turning this into a Bucks bashing.
All of the recent descriptions of this place as noxious, poisonous, caustic, spiteful are apt. The Beams thread is an embarrassment. Posters who used to contribute reasonably and valuably have been dragged into the mire of the trolls like a talented team being sucked into an ugly game by an underskilled opponent.
There are two posters in this thread who have been previously banned (one of them many times). An online forum has to be able to defend itself against trolls better than Nick's has been able to. Especially a forum about something as emotional and passionate as football, and especially when we support a club that enjoys the hatred of so many.
They come here to poison the community and they have been allowed to do so.
We are a forum in crisis. We need to do something soon or we will suffer an ongoing talent bleed and the conversation won't be worth reading.
Only a couple of radicalised pessimists want Bucks moved on now. For the vast majority Bucks has our support as coach in 2015 at least. Writing him off and predicting that he will be failed coach is not a reasonable action by any Collingwood supporter regardless of their opinion of Buckley because it undermines and whiteants our coach, which undermines and whiteants our club. They try to promote disharmony, dissatisfaction and upheaval because it is the best way they can damage a club they hate.
They are having a ball at the minute.
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they can smell what we're cookin' |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Breadcrawl wrote: | Good to see we are respecting the intentions of the OP and not turning this into a Bucks bashing.
All of the recent descriptions of this place as noxious, poisonous, caustic, spiteful are apt. The Beams thread is an embarrassment. Posters who used to contribute reasonably and valuably have been dragged into the mire of the trolls like a talented team being sucked into an ugly game by an underskilled opponent.
There are two posters in this thread who have been previously banned (one of them many times). An online forum has to be able to defend itself against trolls better than Nick's has been able to. Especially a forum about something as emotional and passionate as football, and especially when we support a club that enjoys the hatred of so many.
They come here to poison the community and they have been allowed to do so.
We are a forum in crisis. We need to do something soon or we will suffer an ongoing talent bleed and the conversation won't be worth reading.
Only a couple of radicalised pessimists want Bucks moved on now. For the vast majority Bucks has our support as coach in 2015 at least. Writing him off and predicting that he will be failed coach is not a reasonable action by any Collingwood supporter regardless of their opinion of Buckley because it undermines and whiteants our coach, which undermines and whiteants our club. They try to promote disharmony, dissatisfaction and upheaval because it is the best way they can damage a club they hate.
They are having a ball at the minute. |
Attempt at reasonable discussion thread now officially derailed....
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"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Breadcrawl wrote: | Good to see we are respecting the intentions of the OP and not turning this into a Bucks bashing.
All of the recent descriptions of this place as noxious, poisonous, caustic, spiteful are apt. The Beams thread is an embarrassment. Posters who used to contribute reasonably and valuably have been dragged into the mire of the trolls like a talented team being sucked into an ugly game by an underskilled opponent.
There are two posters in this thread who have been previously banned (one of them many times). An online forum has to be able to defend itself against trolls better than Nick's has been able to. Especially a forum about something as emotional and passionate as football, and especially when we support a club that enjoys the hatred of so many.
They come here to poison the community and they have been allowed to do so.
We are a forum in crisis. We need to do something soon or we will suffer an ongoing talent bleed and the conversation won't be worth reading.
Only a couple of radicalised pessimists want Bucks moved on now. For the vast majority Bucks has our support as coach in 2015 at least. Writing him off and predicting that he will be failed coach is not a reasonable action by any Collingwood supporter regardless of their opinion of Buckley because it undermines and whiteants our coach, which undermines and whiteants our club. They try to promote disharmony, dissatisfaction and upheaval because it is the best way they can damage a club they hate.
They are having a ball at the minute. |
Attempt at reasonable discussion thread now officially derailed.... |
Was already derailed........
Breadcrawl nailed it. Amen and lol to your post breadcrawl.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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Forum in crisis lol. Just one more appeal for censorship is what it really is. Some of you "perceptive fellow" need to grow up.
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"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | uncanny wrote: | Gerard Whateley the ABC commentator has Nathan Buckley in the commentary box tomorrow, as he did last week. I hear Gerard say on radio earlier in the week what a privilege it was to have Bucks on hand during the call for the Hawks Power clash. He put it as having a hotline to the coaches box.
Gerard described a debate between Bucks and Mark Maclure in the last q before power made their charge. Maclure said power should go shorter and faster in the forward line. Bucks gave him all these logical reasons why it shouldn't happen. Stick to the structure. They went small and power came storming home. Footy instinct and smarts over structure and process was the way to go.
Nathan is as honest as the day is long and meticulous in his planning. Embracing LT goes with this mindset. This is a great strength of his. I think we need more balance though. Footy clubs thrive on fun and characters. Remember the brat pack? It threw up problems every now and then but they got the job done and imbued a winning spirit into the team. Could we look at the Australian Cricket team's recent experience as a guide? The ultra professional, process driven methods of Mickey Arthur didn't cut it. Boof Lehmann comes in and relies on challenging and backing players to harness their talent, ensuring all players buy into the team spirit and play like mates. a key philosophy is that it's got to be fun if you are going to play well. It reminds me of the football instincts of a Ken Hinkley and his forthright manner empowering his players to take the game on, all the while playing for each other might be what's lacking with the pies.
Let's not throw out LT and the methods employed but can we overlay it with more passion, magpie spirit and mateship? |
That highlighted passage is what I find most surprising and worrying about Buckley as coach.
It's completely the opposite to what I expected from him when appointed coach.
His constant selection of some players and comments about rewarding effort when it comes to team selection earlier in the year only adds wait to the Whateley observations. |
process is very important when you're dealing with inexperience or learning the trade. following a process should produce the same outcome each and every time. |
On the other hand, its exactly what I expected when he became coach. Following a process rigidly might lead you to create some nice paint by numbers water colours of some flowers in a vase but it will never lead you to produce a Van Gogh, or any other masterpiece. That is one glaring difference between Buckley and Malthouse. Malthouse had intuition and process; Buckley's only got process. Leading Teams can't create intuitive thinking; I doubt it can even enhance it. Will LT help the players then? Such processes based on organisational/group psychology are more hit and miss than many give them credit. They work best when their workings aren't somehow revealed. They fail particularly when the message they promote contradicts or is undermined by the workings of the official working culture that has hired the change agents in the first place.
Apart from sacking Buckley (and okay this isn't the thread to advocate that I concede), the best solution is to surround him with more intuitive football thinkers and give them carte blanche to challenge his thinking whenever they see fit. Obviously in front of the players may not be appropriate but such a solution maybe the only way to get him to think outside his small process/effort driven box. Would it work? Maybe. Intuition isn't innate, it is learnt. Perhaps even Buckley could evolve under such a regime. |
I'm not sure that Buckley is the completely process driven, non-intuitive coach that many seem to think he is, but I agree that he is a very process driven coach. Fwiw, I think Malthouse was also. He was stubborn in sticking to his game-plan and processes even when they clearly weren't working. That stubbornness cost us the 2011 Premiership imo.
Nevertheless, I agree with the thrust of your argument RR. Good coaches need to be surrounded by strong assistants with the courage and encouragement to question. For mine, I'd love to one day get Choco Williams as an assistant. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| stui magpie wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | ThePieMind wrote: | In absence of establishing an enduring culture clubs just lurch from the Charisma and competence of one coach to the other.
The process is entirely hit or miss.
LT have achieved success at what are arguable the best 3 teams of the last decade - GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS.
If we are prepared to poach their support staff to improve our club then I don't see why using LT has come in for such criticism given the results at these clubs.
We will have teething problems of course and some players may resist but at the end of the day building a sustainably success culture is worth the effort.
Swans have proven a strong culture underpinns effective coaching transitions and that's what its all about. |
Yes, they have worked with the Hawks and Swans. I don't believe LT has worked with Geelong. I do know they've been working with the Bulldogs for several years, with not much success it seems. Obviously, it's a system which some people embrace, but equally there are those who find it intrusive and destructive. It partly depends on the personality types of those involved in it, which will vary from club to club.
I also know that LT were not involved at our club in 2010 when we won a flag. |
Actually Geelong is one of their more famous success stories. http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/buying-into-the-philosophy-a-leadership-approach-20130919-2u2kx.html
FWIW I agree completely that it's not fool proof, it will work well for some people and be a disaster for others.
I also agree on the call for some kind of peace "Assuming we're all Collingwood supporters"
I personally seriously dislike the "perceptive fellow" and other labels, it's juvenile crap. I'd much prefer that people simply take on board a couple of key points.
1. everyone has an opinion. Fell free to exercise it but try not to abuse it.
2. Excessive negativity is a drainer. There are a number of avenues available to people with mental illness, use them, don't clog up a football bulletin board with your negativity. Consider others feelings. 3.
3. The kharma bus will get Trolls. Nothing surer. |
To assume that all posters here ARE fair dinkum Collingwood fans is what the Mods do. Utter bloody bullshit.
The REALITY is that some are totally pretend posters who wouldn't know Collingwood from a bar of soap (and have probably never used a bar of soap in their dirty dick lives).....  |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Forum in crisis lol. Just one more appeal for censorship is what it really is. Some of you "perceptive fellow" need to grow up. |
You "perceptive fellow" need therapy to get some love and sunshine into your miserable bloody negative lives..... Think of your poor family members having to put up with the constant sooking, whining and whinging from fools like you...  |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Forum in crisis lol. Just one more appeal for censorship is what it really is. Some of you "perceptive fellow" need to grow up. |
You "perceptive fellow" need therapy to get some love and sunshine into your miserable bloody negative lives..... Think of your poor family members having to put up with the constant sooking, whining and whinging from fools like you... |
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ThePieMind
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | ThePieMind wrote: | In absence of establishing an enduring culture clubs just lurch from the Charisma and competence of one coach to the other.
The process is entirely hit or miss.
LT have achieved success at what are arguable the best 3 teams of the last decade - GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS.
If we are prepared to poach their support staff to improve our club then I don't see why using LT has come in for such criticism given the results at these clubs.
We will have teething problems of course and some players may resist but at the end of the day building a sustainably success culture is worth the effort.
Swans have proven a strong culture underpinns effective coaching transitions and that's what its all about. |
Yes, they have worked with the Hawks and Swans. I don't believe LT has worked with Geelong. I do know they've been working with the Bulldogs for several years, with not much success it seems. Obviously, it's a system which some people embrace, but equally there are those who find it intrusive and destructive. It partly depends on the personality types of those involved in it, which will vary from club to club.
I also know that LT were not involved at our club in 2010 when we won a flag. |
Here's the link: Cameron Mooney radio Interview
http://www.leadingteams.net.au/news_details/cameron_mooney_credits_leading_teams_with_geelongs_success
There are no guarantees that trying to the use strategies by poaching staff from other successful clubs works, but that doesn't stop clubs trying.
LT is no different but definitely worth trying.
As I said the 3 best clubs of the last decade have succeed with LT - so we are right to give it a go. |
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simon tonna
Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Location: carindale
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[quote="ThePieMind"]In absence of establishing an enduring culture clubs just lurch from the Charisma and competence of one coach to the other.
The process is entirely hit or miss.
LT have achieved success at what are arguable the best 3 teams of the last decade - GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS.
If we are prepared to poach their support staff to improve our club then I don't see why using LT has come in for such criticism given the results at these clubs.
We will have teething problems of course and some players may resist but at the end of the day building a sustainably success culture is worth the effort.
{Swans have proven a strong culture underpinns effective coaching transitions and that's what its all about.}
It would be interesting to here what d jolly thinks about leading teams. Fwiw he never made any noise outside of football and after one year under bucks he was the exact opposite of what the group was meant to bring.
quote]
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no second chances |
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ThePieMind
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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[quote="simon tonna"] | ThePieMind wrote: | In absence of establishing an enduring culture clubs just lurch from the Charisma and competence of one coach to the other.
The process is entirely hit or miss.
LT have achieved success at what are arguable the best 3 teams of the last decade - GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS.
If we are prepared to poach their support staff to improve our club then I don't see why using LT has come in for such criticism given the results at these clubs.
We will have teething problems of course and some players may resist but at the end of the day building a sustainably success culture is worth the effort.
{Swans have proven a strong culture underpinns effective coaching transitions and that's what its all about.}
It would be interesting to here what d jolly thinks about leading teams. Fwiw he never made any noise outside of football and after one year under bucks he was the exact opposite of what the group was meant to bring.
quote] |
Disgruntled players also left GEEL, SWANS and HAWKS during the LT process but didn't stop the success. |
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